Concept2 Forum

I'd like to again solicit views on run vs. row performance. I've been running for more than 25 years, with a few serious injury breaks, and I've had a CII Model B with PM1 for close to 20 years, used it a lot the first several years, but had drifted away until last summer when I started using it (and newer models at my Y) a lot as I returned to some fitness after a mystery illness break. At my fittest, my run times were better than CII, but in the same range. Now, my rowing times are encouraging, less than 10% slower than in my prime, but I cannot come close to that standard running, where I'm more like 25-30% slower.

So, when I asked about this last year, I received many thoughtful responses, but they mainly explained why some athletes (ie 'Clydesdale' runners not penalized for their size when seated on the rower) do better in one sport than the other. That is NOT my question. I would like thoughts and perspectives on why someone whose run times were fairly predictive of CII efforts 20 years ago is now so much slower running. Could it be the smooth motion of the rower diminishes the penalty I pay for a loss of joint flexibility that increasingly slows my run times? Other hypotheses? Thanks.

Stan

MarathonStan wrote:I would like thoughts and perspectives on why someone whose run times were fairly predictive of CII efforts 20 years ago is now so much slower running. Could it be the smooth motion of the rower diminishes the penalty I pay for a loss of joint flexibility that increasingly slows my run times? Other hypotheses? Thanks.

Stan

I think that your hypothesis is right on the money. As a low impact exercise, erging is a lot easier on the body than running. Not just flexibility, but in general. At 86, I find it necessary to use a pair of canes for walking more than just a few blocks and running is out of the question. Last season, on the erg, I was still able to do a marathon in less than 3 hours and 20 minutes.

Bob S.

yes,

You are proberly right, due to in jurees I can't run at all, not even 10 yards, even walking beyond a few miles is beyond me, but on the rower I am still relative ok, 2k in the 6.2x at age 44 at 92 kg/6.1 As you see I have a weight that is not suited to run.

Between rowing and running there is a difference in the energy costs of the movement (external vs internal). In rowing you are moving in a highly viscous medium (high external energy costs). In running you have to deal with a high speed and rate of movement of the body limps (high internal energy costs).

In rowing you must mainly overcome hydrodynamic drag (aerodynamic for erg) whose power requirements scales as the cube of the velocity. In running you must mainly overcome the loss of energy each time your body moves up and down (in rowing the rate is much lower). The required power in running is more or less linear with velocity (and the required energy for a given distance is almost not effected by speed).

Because of this running times decrease faster (about three times in terms of percentage) with reduced power.

The fact that running times and rowing times were once comparable was just a coincidence.

Hi Bob,
Your comment here surprises me greatly. From your picture on the Nonathlon site you look to be in great physical shape for any age...and for 86 you look phenomenal! So I was shocked to read that you have difficulty walking very far.
Do you have any other physical problems that limit your walking? Pre-existing knee, hip or lower back problems? Or is it just an accumulation of joint-stiffening-as-we-age problem?
Brent

Bob S. wrote: I think that your hypothesis is right on the money. As a low impact exercise, erging is a lot easier on the body than running. Not just flexibility, but in general. At 86, I find it necessary to use a pair of canes for walking more than just a few blocks and running is out of the question. Last season, on the erg, I was still able to do a marathon in less than 3 hours and 20 minutes.

Bob S.

Bob

I like what you said so much that I linked this on my Facebook page.

icomefrombirmingham wrote:Hi Bob,
Your comment here surprises me greatly. From your picture on the Nonathlon site you look to be in great physical shape for any age...and for 86 you look phenomenal! So I was shocked to read that you have difficulty walking very far.
Do you have any other physical problems that limit your walking? Pre-existing knee, hip or lower back problems? Or is it just an accumulation of joint-stiffening-as-we-age problem?
Brent

My major problem is a lack of cartilage in my right knee. I suppose that I could go ahead with a replacement, but that would put me out of action for several months and I am not ready for that. The pain is still moderate enough that I can put up with it. I have tried both cortisone and hyaluronic acid treatments and both seemed to have helped, but not dramatically. There is also considerable degenerative arthritis of my lower spine and my left hip. I have been visibly kyphotic since my teens or earlier, but in recent years I have become a regular Quasimodo. However, the upper back curvature doesn't seem to hurt my rowing or carrying a moderate weight backpack.

For ordinary walking around, I don't bother with canes, but for hikes that take more than a few minutes, I figure that it helps to let my upper body do some of the work to take some of the load off my legs and back.

There are a lot of limitations that develop with increasing age and the only recourse is to accept them and learn to cope with them.

Bob S.

My major problem is a lack of cartilage in my right knee. I suppose that I could go ahead with a replacement, but that would put me out of action for several months and I am not ready for that. The pain is still moderate enough that I can put up with it. I have tried both cortisone and hyaluronic acid treatments and both seemed to have helped, but not dramatically. There is also considerable degenerative arthritis of my lower spine and my left hip. I have been visibly kyphotic since my teens or earlier, but in recent years I have become a regular Quasimodo. However, the upper back curvature doesn't seem to hurt my rowing or carrying a moderate weight backpack.

For ordinary walking around, I don't bother with canes, but for hikes that take more than a few minutes, I figure that it helps to let my upper body do some of the work to take some of the load off my legs and back.

There are a lot of limitations that develop with increasing age and the only recourse is to accept them and learn to cope with them.

Bob S.

Hmmm...the degenerative arthritis of the lumbar spine and left hip sounds familiar! In my case this seems to be helped by rowing and I hope that the weight loss and muscle strength that rowing induces will help delay the adverse effects.

I would have thought you would relish the thought of knee replacement...then, with a year or so of rehab you'd be targeting setting erging world records into your 90s!

Brent