Rowing with a shoulder bursitis

[jamesg]

Has anyone else rowing regularly had a minor shoulder bursitis and what was your recovery plan?

Not sure if that's the name, but our very complex shoulders suffer injuries are of many types, easy to get and long to cure.

My first was right shoulder, probably bicep lost or tore one of its tendons by overload. The other does ok now. Hard to put on a jacket. Refused surgery. Took about a year, main cure rolling shoulders both directions, force up and down, push off and pull into wall or tree at the side using hand with forearm horizontal in front (all by lifting one foot off the ground), describe circles on the wall in front both arms horizontal. Also with rubber tapes, rowing action, arms straight in front to straight down, plus some two arm action with the tape in front, arms straight and bent. All done both sides injured or not.

Second time left arm, no idea what broke, got it by some strange twist in bushes looking for mushrooms or something, but same cure, same time.

More carefl next time.

Kept rowing both times, shoulders down, forearms level and inline, which is standard style anyway.

[robhely]

What experiences have others had when taking time off rowing for rehab and how much did it set you back?

Ime, I have a 2:1 ratio after time off, but this is only after at the most two weeks off. If it's any longer I can't say for sure but I'm guessing it would be less due to muscle memory.

I'd suggest that you try to look at it as a challenge rather than a frustration. Accept that you'll take a step back, but enjoy the process of improvement. There's inevitably a setback but there's also inevitably a strong return back to where you were.

I'm trying to be positive about it, but at the moment it's challenging to not be able to row at all. I attempted a short row yesterday after a week off and it felt bad; it's the first time I've actually felt pain while rowing. I'm getting a cortisone injection tomorrow, which will be followed by a mandatory 1 - 2 weeks of complete rest, so fingers crossed that I'll be able to get back on the erg after that and start the process of getting back to where I was.

The problem is erging is so addictive, there are plenty of other physical activities I'd happily give up for a while!

[robhely]

What experiences have others had when taking time off rowing for rehab and how much did it set you back?

I tore my biceps last year during Judo, which forced me off the Erg for 6 weeks. After that I was allowed to start with the damper at the lowest setting, and a 2:30 pace. My physio told me I could only increase one of them if I was pain free for two weeks. It took me a year to get to DF90.

I did introduce some changes:

• I focussed on technique a lot, so breaking arms late, keeping back straight, etc..
• As I wasn't allowed to go fast, I decided to focus on longer pieces. I effectively more than doubled the meters per week to 55-60K a week, including a HM on sundays.
• I decided to have one or two pieces at HR Zone 4, and the rest (3 of them) in 2 or maximum a low 3, based on this TEDx video.

I also decided to celebrate each Season Best as a personal best for the injured me. That kept me motivated as I saw progress. I was getting faster again. After 9-10 months or so, when switching to DF90, I started to get extremely close to PB's. After 11 months, all long distance PB's (5K+) were broken in a matter of weeks. Now, 13 months after my injury, I routinely row a 10K at my old PB pace, and call it an easy training. Improving technique certainly has paid off for me, and is the blessing in disguise from this injury.

Currently, I'm a bit stuck at DF90, as switching to DF100 resulted in an acute overtraining within two weeks that takes about a month to get rid of. So I'm now gradually taking that step. As I used to row at DF133, I suspect I will be a lot faster when I reach it, but it will take some time. But trusting that I will get there helps for me.

Thanks, that's a really interesting perspective. It does make sense that recovery should start with a really low DF, I attempted a session yesterday on my normal DF (125) and it felt horrible - like it was causing damage. I really enjoy longer distances anyway, so could see it as an opportunity to try even longer pieces. The most I've ever done is 10,000m, not because I couldn't go further, it's just never occurred to me to try it.

I think the hardest thing for me about going to a lower DF is actually ego related. There's nothing more damaging to split times than a low DF! I know that I need to get over that mentality.

Interesting video, amazing to think that the best exercise for longevity could be working out at much lower intensity. Definitely at odds with researchers who swear that interval training combined with the longer workouts at low intensity is the ultimate formula for everything.

[robhely]

Has anyone else rowing regularly had a minor shoulder bursitis and what was your recovery plan?

Not sure if that's the name, but our very complex shoulders suffer injuries are of many types, easy to get and long to cure.

My first was right shoulder, probably bicep lost or tore one of its tendons by overload. The other does ok now. Hard to put on a jacket. Refused surgery. Took about a year, main cure rolling shoulders both directions, force up and down, push off and pull into wall or tree at the side using hand with forearm horizontal in front (all by lifting one foot off the ground), describe circles on the wall in front both arms horizontal. Also with rubber tapes, rowing action, arms straight in front to straight down, plus some two arm action with the tape in front, arms straight and bent. All done both sides injured or not.

Second time left arm, no idea what broke, got it by some strange twist in bushes looking for mushrooms or something, but same cure, same time.

More carefl next time.

Kept rowing both times, shoulders down, forearms level and inline, which is standard style anyway.

Very interesting that you kept rowing through all that rehab. I've been pushing through until now, but in the last couple of weeks things have gotten way worse and I'm pretty sure that it's the rowing that's doing it. I don't think I overtrain, but I do go pretty hard with the intervals and as I'm quite new to it, have been doing quite a few PB attempts along the way and seeing a lot of gains.

I don't think it's bad technique that's caused issues, but the repetitive action of rowing has slowing been making the injury worse.

I'm going in for a cortisone injection tomorrow, but if that doesn't result in improvement, will probably end up doing a lot of shoulder strengthening exercises as you've done. I just hope I can continue to row, I really enjoy it and it seems like such a good way to ensure good health and fitness well into old age.

[Sakly]

~20 years ago I had intense problems with my right shoulder, caused by playing badminton with a bad technique. It was never diagnosed as I did not visit a doctor, but very similar symptoms. Could barely hold something with my right hand and put it to the right, difficult to put on a jacket (glad I typically don't wear any ). My strength training helped me much to deal with it, but stupidly I did not let it heal and went on with playing badminton (roughly 8-10h/week). End of the story, I had these issues for over a year until I learned a better technique and it went away SLOWLY by itself.
Today I think, if I had stopped for 3-4 weeks and let it heal up, restarted with focus on good technique, take some training, it wouldn't have lasted for so long and my badminton journey would have been faster in progress.

[robhely]

~20 years ago I had intense problems with my right shoulder, caused by playing badminton with a bad technique. It was never diagnosed as I did not visit a doctor, but very similar symptoms. Could barely hold something with my right hand and put it to the right, difficult to put on a jacket (glad I typically don't wear any ). My strength training helped me much to deal with it, but stupidly I did not let it heal and went on with playing badminton (roughly 8-10h/week). End of the story, I had these issues for over a year until I learned a better technique and it went away SLOWLY by itself.
Today I think, if I had stopped for 3-4 weeks and let it heal up, restarted with focus on good technique, take some training, it wouldn't have lasted for so long and my badminton journey would have been faster in progress.

Yep, pretty sure that if I properly rest this injury and sensibly get back into erging with a focus on technique rather than results I'll be a lot better off. I'd rather row sustainably than not be able to row at all.

I cringe to think of how clueless I was when I first got on the water rower: bad technique, no warm-ups, no training program, just a PB attempt every session! The worst thing about it and what probably encouraged this bad behaviour was the incredible inaccuracy of the water rower monitor - I felt like a rowing superstar and foolishly thought I was actually quite fast, which encouraged me to go at it like a bull at a gate...

[Sakly]

Haha, I think we agree: ego training sucks
What you wrote first. Better row sustainably than not at all. And to get a good base, let the stuff heal - regardless of time needed. This is the only suggestion I can give. You will probably need 2 or 3 month to get back, but during this time you can focus on longer steady rows that will improve your cv system and your technique. On this base you can attack the intervals to build up speed again and I bet you will kill all your previous PBs within a month.

[Dangerscouse]

I think the hardest thing for me about going to a lower DF is actually ego related. There's nothing more damaging to split times than a low DF! I know that I need to get over that mentality.

That's interesting that low DF is a pace killer for you. That shouldn't be an issue, but it is subjective. What is your usual DF? I set a lot of previous PBs at 115 and I'm currently rowing at 125 but might lower it down to circa 120.

[JaapvanE]

Thanks, that's a really interesting perspective. It does make sense that recovery should start with a really low DF, I attempted a session yesterday on my normal DF (125) and it felt horrible - like it was causing damage.

That is a clear sign to do something, either change your approach to rowing or take a longer break. I sometimes still feel my biceps hurting, but it is more like a sore muscle that objects to be used again after a heavy workout. I guess it will remain a weak spot until properly recovered.

I really enjoy longer distances anyway, so could see it as an opportunity to try even longer pieces. The most I've ever done is 10,000m, not because I couldn't go further, it's just never occurred to me to try it.

That was my "range" as well before this. But being stuck at an incredible slow forced pace, I went exploring longer distances. So my 10K was expanded to a 12.5K, 15K, 18K and finally a HM. I really like thise longer rows.

I think the hardest thing for me about going to a lower DF is actually ego related. There's nothing more damaging to split times than a low DF! I know that I need to get over that mentality.

Starting at a forced 2:30 pace (that is the slowest pace I could row) at 20-24 SPM taught me to hold back and actually took my ego out of the equation: I knew I could go a lot faster, but I wasn't allowed to. So if the DF won't slow you down, your recovery process should.

Low DF could indeed is tough, especially if you keep around 20SPM. At DF68 I was frustrated, even at very low pace, as I couldn't put the force in I wanted. But I was back on the machine, mostly pain free. It did get better after some training though. The switch from DF80 to DF90 was like magic to me: finally some resistance to work with. As my technique improved in the many months before, I really started to break PR's routinely. For me, DF90 is some limit were things get interesting.

I'm now slowly transitioning from DF90 to DF100, as that transitions is pretty tough with my current trainingload. So I did a 10K yesterday on DF100, and broke my PR again (which was set at DF90). Looks promissing once I get the overtraining bit out of the way and do all my workouts at DF100.

Interesting video, amazing to think that the best exercise for longevity could be working out at much lower intensity. Definitely at odds with researchers who swear that interval training combined with the longer workouts at low intensity is the ultimate formula for everything.

To me, it changed my approach to rowing completely. I row to stay healthy, as my chances of getting to Olympics (as a 51 year old with a just above average pace on longer distances) are remote at best. I allow myself to move into HR Zone 4 once or twice a week, but 80% of my time is now at those lower HR zones. I am much more relaxed now: I know that todays training will not break any personal records, as I'm restricted in heartrate because of the 10K yesterday. I'm just going to have some fun.

[robhely]

I think the hardest thing for me about going to a lower DF is actually ego related. There's nothing more damaging to split times than a low DF! I know that I need to get over that mentality.

That's interesting that low DF is a pace killer for you. That shouldn't be an issue, but it is subjective. What is your usual DF? I set a lot of previous PBs at 115 and I'm currently rowing at 125 but might lower it down to circa 120.

My usual DF is 125, I find that to maintain the same splits on a lower DF, say 110, I have to up my rate from something like 21 to 25, which puts me above my target heart rate on a training session. It's either that or add ~20 seconds to the splits.

This is interesting, I thought that 125 was on the low side and I've never tried a PB at anything lower, but perhaps I should? On my erg 125 halfway between 4 and 5 on the damper setting.

[robhely]

To me, it changed my approach to rowing completely. I row to stay healthy, as my chances of getting to Olympics (as a 51 year old with a just above average pace on longer distances) are remote at best. I allow myself to move into HR Zone 4 once or twice a week, but 80% of my time is now at those lower HR zones. I am much more relaxed now: I know that todays training will not break any personal records, as I'm restricted in heartrate because of the 10K yesterday. I'm just going to have some fun.

This is very inspirational. I'm almost 53 years old, not that tall and 71kg, so I will never be breaking any records either. I've always been extremely competitive in all of the sports I've engaged with, so my natural tendency with rowing has been the same. I look at the rankings and think to myself "with enough training, I could probably get to the 90th percentile or better". But not if I'm overdoing it and causing injury.

While I'm recovering I'm definitely going to explore these long, low DF rows you speak of.

I'm not sure what you mean by HR Zone 4, I've been using the system that starts with UT2 and scales up to UT1, AT, TR and AN. My long training rows on the BPP are always at UT2 (~140), when I do interval days I usually get up to TR (~170).

[JaapvanE]

I'm not sure what you mean by HR Zone 4, I've been using the system that starts with UT2 and scales up to UT1, AT, TR and AN. My long training rows on the BPP are always at UT2 (~140), when I do interval days I usually get up to TR (~170).

I use Garmin's HR Zones as I use a Garmin watch to measure HR. Zone 2 is 60-70% of MaxHR, which ends for me at 130. I also watch my breathing rythem (afterwards), which shows me that in Zone 2 my breathing rate matches the strokerate 1:1 (usually 21 spm, so 21 to 23 breaths per minute), as soon as I cross into Zone 3, my breathing is double my strokerate (so around 43 breaths per minute).

[iain]

Gone off topic a bit, so apologies to OP.

The TED talk is now >10 years old. Does anyone know what research has followed on from this? I get that multiple marathons all out can have a detrimental effect as will exercising every day. I remember one paper that concluded differently for cyclists, the data wasn't as explicit, but regular club cyclists had more benefits than people who cycled slowly regularly. Runnning is known to be hard on the body and the damage to knees and ankles will cause inflamatory cascades that might lead to some of the observed effects. So what I really waant to know is dong 1-2 hard rows a week and 2-3 longer slower rows a week more than the optimum for health? Also what is the maximum distance for slow rows that give an optimum health benefit? the nature of running is that as a weight bearing exercise it is not possible to row as low intensity as we can row. Also HR tends t be higher (although as someone who has never run seriously I do not know whether trained people can maintain UT2 level HR while jogging for 40+ mins). Any further info would be greatly accepted.

When I used to have regular health screenings for a previous job, my doctor got very excited at the athletic heart syndrome ("AHS")that was clearly visible in my HR traces (even then at my peak my best 2k was 7:16, so hardly "an athlete"). This preceded the video above and the conclusion was that this wasn't anything to get worried about, but might give more cursory heart investigations to throw up incorrect issues. Does anyone know whether AHS is still considered in this light? It arises from thickening of the ventricles and increased ventricular volume, so similar t the cause mentioned in the video.

Similarly, it is generally accepted that an FM on an erg is less punishing than a running FM. I try and do an FM per year, is this putting my health at risk? Or would this only be the case for 60k+ where the strain is similar to that faced by runners?

Any thoughts gratefully received.

[JaapvanE]

The TED talk is now >10 years old. Does anyone know what research has followed on from this?

It is still an active topic of investigation (for example this study, only in Dutch , where runners are selected to look at their bloodwork and the impact on their heart). But when I see a feb '22 blog post and a july '22 blog post from the same author seem pretty recent. In this blog post on TrainingPeaks which references a journal article from 2019. So I guess it is still a credible theory that training too hard too often is not optimal.

I haven't digested all these articles yet, as I started reading into it more based on this discussion.

I get that multiple marathons all out can have a detrimental effect as will exercising every day. I remember one paper that concluded differently for cyclists, the data wasn't as explicit, but regular club cyclists had more benefits than people who cycled slowly regularly. Runnning is known to be hard on the body and the damage to knees and ankles will cause inflamatory cascades that might lead to some of the observed effects. So what I really waant to know is dong 1-2 hard rows a week and 2-3 longer slower rows a week more than the optimum for health? Also what is the maximum distance for slow rows that give an optimum health benefit? the nature of running is that as a weight bearing exercise it is not possible to row as low intensity as we can row. Also HR tends t be higher (although as someone who has never run seriously I do not know whether trained people can maintain UT2 level HR while jogging for 40+ mins). Any further info would be greatly accepted.

I guess that combining longer, slower, restrained pieces with focussed peaks works better than going nearly all out on every training. I row HM's almost each week, and they typically peak at HR Zone 4 (i.e. 80-90% Max HR). But that could be over 30 minutes in that zone. Taking a step back here would be good for me, I guess.

One takeaway from the video I did pick up: the process can reverse itself when people adopt better training schedules. So we are not in the process of hurting ourselves permanently.

[iain]

Not read the Dutch article, but the other is still looking at what is optimal for best times. The TED talk acknowledged that hard training will give the fastest times, the bigger issue is what level of training can be maintained before the health benefits have to be sacrificed for performance?