Does anyone take the BMI seriously?

[bepah]

Dave,

I like the way you think!

Since it seems clear that I am qualified to be here....I will think about the diet you suggest!

[hjs]

High bmi caused by muscle is also no healthy, first to get above 30 being lean is almost impossible without using drugs and bodybuilders who do have lots of health issues and do not reach a high age on average.
Strongman or other powerathletes can have high bmi but are not very lean, for them reaching a high age being healthy is again not common. So either way, bmi being very fat or being strong and fat is never a situation our body can easily handle.

[Snail Space]

Dave,

I like the way you think!

Since it seems clear that I am qualified to be here....I will think about the diet you suggest!

I'm delighted to have been of service.

Cheers,
Dave.

[Bob S.]

High bmi caused by muscle is also no healthy, first to get above 30 being lean is almost impossible without using drugs and bodybuilders who do have lots of health issues and do not reach a high age on average.
Strongman or other powerathletes can have high bmi but are not very lean, for them reaching a high age being healthy is again not common. So either way, bmi being very fat or being strong and fat is never a situation our body can easily handle.

Another consideration is that higher weight, whether it is muscle, fat or both, is hard on the joints, especially the ankles, knees. and hips. Even the spine develops problems. As an octogenarian, I am thankful that I have never had a serious weight problem, but I do regret all those deep squats with several hundred pounds on the bar. I would have been much better off if they had the modern leg presses back in those days.An alternative, that would have been much better for the spine, is one-legged squats with little or no weight. Not only does that take pressure off the spine, but it helps to improve balance.

Bob S

[carlb]

I have always had a problem with the Body Mass Index. I do not believe it has any validity with respect to body form and unfairly penalizes those with more muscular masses. For example, I am 5' 10 1/2' tall and have lost over 20 pounds (from 248 to 220) since December 27th.

I was rated as obese according to the BMI chart. While I have dropped nearly 30 pounds and can erg at a sub 2:20/500 meter pace for over an hour again,...my BMI chart rates me as ........obese. BTW, I am 61 years old and had a stent put in my heart last March.

The Nutrition nurse at the VA lectured me about this ( I considered breaking her in half like a twig) but I feel that she is only spouting the dill.

Any thoughts?

I can't agree with you.

Given the facts you state of 61, 248 lbs before recent weight loss, recent stent, diabetic .... I doubt it is "muscular mass" that is unfairly skewing your BMI.

Waist size is a good indicator of obesity. You say 35 inch waist, but a 48 jacket seems like it would indicate a big belly and upper body fat. Only you can say for sure.

Thanks for all of the replies. FWIW, I have a 35 inch waist, wear a 48 jacket, and I think I could stand to lose another 10 pounts or so, but am not in a rush to do so.

While I am not a body builder, I do have these heavy legs which I think were grown from too much ice skating, cycling, and rowing. I used to ride these silly ultra rides (500-900 miles) over 2-3 days and once I became conscious, I realized that I was wasting time out in the desert riding bicycles.

So here I am, 30 years later, being lectured by a Twiggie wannabe.......I guess I will just have to resign myself to getting to be an overweighter on the BMI scale and not seeing my designated VA diabetic nutritionist...... there are worse things, you know.

Worse things?....like the progression of diabeties that does systemic damage to most body systems. My sister is a visiting Nurse in AZ for the VA so I hear plenty of stories of heavy diabetics that are alive, but not living a great life. She calls them her BFF's (Big Fat Friends). I'll see if I can get a few stories.

I think BMI was designed for evaluation of populations more then individuals, like that Mississippi is 50% obese. For the individual I think BMI has some use in saying there is a weight problem. Based on my own experience I think the Halls.md web page saying you are clearly overweight at 27.8 is about right. Your BMI is 31.1. 220 lbs is too heavy, 187 lbs would be 26.4 and at the top of Halls.md normal.

I'm 52, 71.5" and 170 lbs = BMI of 23.4. I've been 248 lbs, I know that 220 lbs is too heavy for me. I look a bit thin in pictures, but I think humans evolved to be gracile, i.e. thin.

It's sounds to me like you don't like what you're hearing, so you are attacking the messenger..... BMI is invalid, the nutritionist is twig thin and shouldn't be lecturing you. I'm guessing you think Twiggie is just natually thin. I've met people that tell me I must be luckly to be thin, I know it takes a daily effort of eating a nutritous diet and exercise.

I'd suggest you _try_ the learned advice you are being given. Change your diet as suggested, possibly radically (no frequent tri-tip). Most Type 2 diabetics I know (father in law) simply will not make major changes to eat very nutritious foods - mostly fruits, veg, fish, whole grains. They just try not to eat so bad, avoid carbs, and they don't accomplish any improvement but maintaining sugar levels. Paula Deen is a good example, preparing the same "stroke belt" foods with a few changes so they aren't quite so bad.

Sounds like you're doing exercise....I'd suggest at least 6 days/wk of 30 minutes of rowing.

_Try_ Twiggie's changes for 6 months and see what your body does, it should drop weight and size. See how you feel. If you don't like the results.... then you can complain about Twiggie. If you follow your current plan to ignore learned advice I think there is plenty of evidence of the complications that will manifest.

BTW ... was reading some about the Volumetrices plan and it sounds like an interesting diet concept. IMO it's not satisfying to eat small amouts of calorie dense food.

[kayakr]

The cheap fat pinch calipers do a great job, although I think they under-estimate visceral (internal) fat. Since going vegan I've lost 2 inches off my pants waist size although I can still pinch a good amount on the outside. So I think the vegs are melting the fat from the inside out. Which is actually great from a health point of view.

[kayakr]

Most MD's serious about optimizing wellness (See "eat to live") would say if you can pinch more that 1/2" you're above ideal and if you can pinch more that 1" anywhere, you're fat/diet is increasing your health risks.

Current statistics say something like 66% of kids today will be getting diabetes in their lifetime (along with stroke, heart attack, cancer, erectile disfunction, etc.), so something is seriously wrong with "normal" and the standard american diet (aka SAD) and lifestyle. Hard to deny. Watch "forks over knives" to see the alternative in action. Check out Bill Clinton's story.

[bepah]

I am both glad that I brought up this topic and sad that we can't all just sit together and hash this out. I am doing what I can to lose the weight I need to lose to, perhaps, end the Type 2 diabetes and reduce dependence on blodd pressure meds (to this end I am so far partially successful, as my physician had directed me to cut the dosage as my BP remains low for hours after my daily row).

As to diet,......I am continually challenged to follow the guidelines that are given me with the result that instead of eating and being satisfied, I remain hungry 24 hours a day. The less protein (meat) I eat, the more this phenomenon is expressed and eventually I break off and fail, dietetically, for the day.

Carl, as to the exercise, I am rowing from 30 minute to an hour each day for at least 6 days a week, sometimes 7, and I believe that it this that it the major cause of my weight loss. The belly is shrinking, it is my shoulder width that causes the 48 jacket size for me.

To go vegetarian, given my attitudes, history, and prior attempts at it, is simply out of the question. I have tried in the past and was completely miserable during the period. Meat is part of my diet and I will have accept that fact. I do eat smaller and more frequent meals at the direction of the nutritionist (her name is not Twiggy but if I told what it really was, you wouldn'y believe me), and supplement snacks times using nuts, primarily raw almonds, and water, water all of the time.

Despite all of the talk and my basic negative attitude, I am making progress, but I cannot ever see myself going under 200 pounds, ever. My drive, actually, was to improve my health for the remainder of my time here and this discussion of the BMI was and is a diversion from my goal.

Again I am glad that so many have contributed to the conversation. It has shown me the diverse population of this community which I feel makes it a healthy one.

Good luck to all of you in March Madness (I will be doing the 10K/day option).

Thanks again.

[hjs]

Some good conversation goin on.

Re: going meat/protein. That is not the problem, its the simple carbs that are 80/90 % of of the problem, eating lean meat in combi with plenty of greens will help with getting a healthy weight. Protein does break down slowly in our system and it costs a lot of energy to do so. Carbs go fast true our system, interrupt with our glucose levels and it cost little energy to do so.

[kayakr]

Going veggie can seem hard. When I first did it, I ate all I wanted, stuffing myself and ignored fat content and stuff like that just to make it easier. But I felt great and still lost weight, so it was actually easy once I took the plunge. No more fighting with my food and hunger.

Later I've started eating cleaner to lose more weight, increase my althletic performance and for better health benefits, but this is much easier as my tastes have changed. One of the benefits, is if you do eat "clean" (low fat / oils) you can absolutely stuff yourself like 5 times a day on fruits/salads/etc. "eat to live" points this effect out with a nutrient/calorie graph.

When I travel now, I lose weight, because generally I can bill the company for more and better foods than I'm willing to make myself at home. Like dinner of thai soup, nonfried spring rolls followed by a full 2 course veggie meal. Absolutely to the gills stuffed and losing weight. That's the opposite of the old days.

Dr McDougal does a costa rican "vacation" with activities, education and good catered veggie food to break you in, which would be a great way to try it. I'd like to but can't spare the change at the moment. In the end, 3K on this would be way less that +100K's on diabetic and heart disease woes.

Best of luck.

[kayakr]

Ok, the thread made me curious.
One more sample.
I'm an active middle aged male, 46, 6ft, 34" waist, 185lbs with some history of consistent weightlighting.
Muscle amounts would put me in the "fit" not "obvious lifter" category.
The BMI calculator puts me on the beginning of the overweight scale.
Fat pinch with clicker calipers on hip fat (16mm) says I'm ~10% bodyfat for my age.
That BF seems low to me, given that I can pinch over an inch in the thickest spots. %13 might be more correct.
Still borderline overweight isn't totally wrong.

http://livelifeactive.com/2012/02/22/un ... e-and-bmi/

[hjs]

Ok, the thread made me curious.
One more sample.
I'm an active middle aged male, 46, 6ft, 34" waist, 185lbs with some history of consistent weightlighting.
Muscle amounts would put me in the "fit" not "obvious lifter" category.
The BMI calculator puts me on the beginning of the overweight scale.
Fat pinch with clicker calipers on hip fat (16mm) says I'm ~10% bodyfat for my age.
That BF seems low to me, given that I can pinch over an inch in the thickest spots. %13 might be more correct.
Still borderline overweight isn't totally wrong.

http://livelifeactive.com/2012/02/22/un ... e-and-bmi/

Around 10% your abs would clearlyshow, if that is not the case you are certainly above 10%. If you have spots over a inch you are very likely above 15%. Only using one point is often not very accurate, better to take more, legs, back, waist, abs, chest, that will give a much more accurate view.
Healthwise you are proberly fine though.

[wfisher]

Some comments on this topic from JAMA 307(1), 86-7 (2012)

Obesity results from accumulation of excess body fat. Obesity is not simply excess body weight because overweight can occur from either muscle or fat deposition.7 Body weight and body mass index are useful in population studies in which excess weight represents excess body fat. However, on an individual level, sex, ethnicity, age, and as Bray et al6 showed, diet composition can affect the relationship between total body fat and body weight.8 Accumulation of
excess fat is associated with obesity-related medical conditions, whereas increased muscle mass is beneficial because
of its positive effect on metabolism. Excess abdominal fat and ectopic fat in the liver, pancreas, and heart can affect
inflammation and increase the risk of a number of common obesity-associated disorders.9

6. Bray GA, Smith SR, de Jonge L, et al. Effect of dietary protein content on weight gain, energy expenditure, and body composition during overeating: a randomized controlled trial. JAMA. 2012;307(1):47-55.
7. Heber D, Ingles S, Ashley JM, Maxwell MH, Lyons RF, Elashoff RM. Clinical detection of sarcopenic obesity by bioelectrical impedance analysis. Am J Clin Nutr. 1996;64(3)(suppl):472S-477S.
8. Deurenberg P, Deurenberg-Yap M. Validity of body composition methods across ethnic population groups. Forum Nutr. 2003;56:299-301.
9. Rossi AP, Fantin F, Zamboni GA, et al. Predictors of ectopic fat accumulation in liver and pancreas in obese men and women. Obesity (Silver Spring). 2011; 19(9):1747-1754.

Wayne

[carlb]

I am doing what I can to lose the weight I need to lose to, perhaps, end the Type 2 diabetes and reduce dependence on blood pressure meds.
as to the exercise, I am rowing from 30 minute to an hour each day for at least 6 days a week, sometimes 7, and I believe that it this that it the major cause of my weight loss.

Despite all of the talk and my basic negative attitude, I am making progress, but I cannot ever see myself going under 200 pounds, ever. My drive, actually, was to improve my health for the remainder of my time here and this discussion of the BMI was and is a diversion from my goal.

From page 4 of 2009 Time Article http://www.time.com/time/magazine/artic ... -4,00.html

"There's also growing evidence that when it comes to preventing certain diseases, losing weight may be more important than improving cardiovascular health. In June, Northwestern University researchers released the results of the longest observational study ever to investigate the relationship between aerobic fitness and the development of diabetes. The results? Being aerobically fit was far less important than having a normal body mass index (BMI) in preventing the disease. And as we have seen, exercise often does little to help heavy people reach a normal weight."

I'll make a new post with a link to that article "Why Exercise Won't Make You Thin" and some excerpts as its on point to recent discussions. In summary Exercise makes you eat more and if you eat badly .....

As to diet,......I am continually challenged to follow the guidelines that are given me with the result that instead of eating and being satisfied, I remain hungry 24 hours a day. The less protein (meat) I eat, the more this phenomenon is expressed and eventually I break off and fail, dietetically, for the day.

Protein is good to eat and prevents hunger. There are many great protein sources that are not meat, e.g. legumes, lentils, yogurt, milk, cottage cheese. The largest land mamals (Elephant, Hippo, Rhino) are Vegan's and get plenty of protein from plants.

On this page try the "Oven-Baked Lentils and Rice". I eat it frequently. Its kind of like Lentil Pizza. Tweaked it to add pizza veggies like mushrooms, tomatoes, red peppers.... did not like spinach in it.
http://www.zonya.com/healthy_recipes.html

[Carl Watts]

Ok, the thread made me curious.
One more sample.
I'm an active middle aged male, 46, 6ft, 34" waist, 185lbs with some history of consistent weightlighting.
Muscle amounts would put me in the "fit" not "obvious lifter" category.
The BMI calculator puts me on the beginning of the overweight scale.
Fat pinch with clicker calipers on hip fat (16mm) says I'm ~10% bodyfat for my age.
That BF seems low to me, given that I can pinch over an inch in the thickest spots. %13 might be more correct.
Still borderline overweight isn't totally wrong.

http://livelifeactive.com/2012/02/22/un ... e-and-bmi/

Interesting stat's, almost identical to mine but there is a big weight differnce, I'm at 225lb with a waist at 34" in jeans depending on style as my thighs just don't fit due to the leg muscles so 35" Levi 513's fit great but my body fat is nothing like 10% (according to my scales it is 21% but I think that's BS ) and this is where the BMI falls over as it doesn't factor in the 3 major body types because if your Mesomorph then your screwed.

http://www.muscleandstrength.com/articl ... morph.html

Swimming is an interesting test and when I breath out i sink like a rock. As part of a fitness test I had to tread water for 5 minutes and this was VERY VERY hard to start with even at the current fitness level I lasted like 40 seconds to start with and had to train to get out to 6 minutes. It is not easy to keep you neck and shoulders out of the water.