Knee arthritis & rowing

General discussions about getting and staying fit that don't relate directly to your indoor rower
User avatar
Steelhead
1k Poster
Posts: 162
Joined: March 22nd, 2006, 3:05 am
Location: Washington
Contact:

Post by Steelhead » March 13th, 2007, 1:53 am

Bob S. wrote:
Steelhead wrote:For anyone who suffers from arthritis, this is probably something to try assiduously to see if it helps: it can’t “hurt.” http://www.pcrm.org/health/prevmed/arthritis.html Here is an excerpt of the key changes in diet:
The Four-Week Anti-Arthritis Diet (adapted from Foods That Fight Pain, by Neal Barnard, M.D.)
For four weeks, include generous amounts of foods from the pain-safe list in your routine. [MRES: see below.]
At the same time, scrupulously avoid the major triggers. [MRES: see below.]
Mike,

That is too much of a generalisation. When I checked out the URL, I found that this exremely restrictive diet was recommended for rheumatiod arthritis, not the degenerative arthritis that most of us develop in old age. I ran this by my daughter, who had been a family practice physician, and she pointed out that rheumatoid arthritis is a disease of the immune system and this diet is designed to try to track down the foods that create allergenic problems with the immune system. Rheumatoid arthritis is indeed a very crippling disease, but not as common as plain old degenerative arthritis.

When I read over that diet, my first reaction was astonishment that the only grain allowed was rice. Even oats, which are highly touted as beneficial, are on the list of nonos.

Bob S.
The article seems to refer to both types of arthritis but the examples do deal with RA and the inflammatory aspects of the disease. I'll have to try to find the book itself.

Here is another reference to diet from Dr. McDougall:

Arthritis

Painful joints can be divided into “degenerative” and “inflammatory” forms of arthritis. Osteoarthritis is the name often given to the degenerative form and this kind is helped with weight loss, a change in diet, glucosamine, and acupuncture.

Inflammatory forms of arthritis, like rheumatoid, Lupus, psoriatic, and ankylosing spondylitis are very responsive to the McDougall Program. To be more specific, about 70% of people with the most common form of inflammatory arthritis, rheumatoid arthritis, can expect dramatic benefits, and often a cure, in less than 4 weeks of diet change. The diet must be followed strictly – medications are reduced and stopped as improvements occur.

http://www.drmcdougall.com/med_hot_arthritis.html

Also:

People diagnosed with degenerative arthritis (osteoarthritis) have inflammation in their joints in addition to the long-standing damage (degeneration). This inflammation can often be stopped with a change in diet and the swelling, pain, and stiffness relieved. What won’t change in either form of arthritis is the permanent destruction left by years of disease, leaving deformity, stiffness and pain.

http://www.drmcdougall.com/med_hot_arthritis_diet.html

So it does seem as though it may not hurt to give this type of diet a try, but after reading your comments, I agree that the more agressive inflammatory forms of arthritis may be helped more by a certain type of diet.

As for the grain issue, please keep in mind that the article states that you eliminate all these foods and then you begin to reintroduce them to determine which if any may aggravate inflammation--it is not a diet in the sense that all those certain foods must be avoided at all times. The idea is to see if any particular food triggers inflammation; and of course I believe that only four grains are to be avoided at first, which leaves barley, buck wheat, millet, quinoa, amaranth, tiff, and rice.

Still, I'm not a medical doctor so all I can do is post an idea that may help some.
Mike

"Sometimes we have to do more than our best, we have to do what is required." Winston Churchill

Completed the Certificate Program in Plant-Based Nutrition through eCornell and the T. Colin Campbell Foundation, January 11, 2011.

Bob S.
Marathon Poster
Posts: 5142
Joined: March 16th, 2006, 12:00 pm

Post by Bob S. » March 13th, 2007, 12:35 pm

Steelhead wrote: People diagnosed with degenerative arthritis (osteoarthritis) have inflammation in their joints in addition to the long-standing damage (degeneration). This inflammation can often be stopped with a change in diet and the swelling, pain, and stiffness relieved. What won’t change in either form of arthritis is the permanent destruction left by years of disease, leaving deformity, stiffness and pain.

The idea is to see if any particular food triggers inflammation; and of course I believe that only four grains are to be avoided at first, which leaves barley, buck wheat, millet, quinoa, amaranth, tiff, and rice.

Still, I'm not a medical doctor so all I can do is post an idea that may help some.
Mike,

Those are a couple of good points to bring out. As far as your original post is concerned, I fully agree that it was a worthwhile item to bring to the attention of the members of this forum. I just felt that it was important to bring out the distinction between the two different ailments.

Bob S.

User avatar
Steelhead
1k Poster
Posts: 162
Joined: March 22nd, 2006, 3:05 am
Location: Washington
Contact:

Post by Steelhead » March 13th, 2007, 12:46 pm

Bob S. wrote:
Steelhead wrote: People diagnosed with degenerative arthritis (osteoarthritis) have inflammation in their joints in addition to the long-standing damage (degeneration). This inflammation can often be stopped with a change in diet and the swelling, pain, and stiffness relieved. What won’t change in either form of arthritis is the permanent destruction left by years of disease, leaving deformity, stiffness and pain.

The idea is to see if any particular food triggers inflammation; and of course I believe that only four grains are to be avoided at first, which leaves barley, buck wheat, millet, quinoa, amaranth, tiff, and rice.

Still, I'm not a medical doctor so all I can do is post an idea that may help some.
Mike,

Those are a couple of good points to bring out. As far as your original post is concerned, I fully agree that it was a worthwhile item to bring to the attention of the members of this forum. I just felt that it was important to bring out the distinction between the two different ailments.

Bob S.
Agreed. Your comments did make me go back and reread the article and some other. Diet may help with inflammation, and those with RA may benefit the most. Bringing out the distinction is important.

Basically, those of us with bad knees need to lose as much weight as possible; every pound of body weight puts 4 pounds of pressure on our knees, so if we lose 50 pounds, we remove 200 pounds of pressure; that is significant, and if at the same time we can eliminate some of the inflammation, even better.

Thanks!!
Mike

"Sometimes we have to do more than our best, we have to do what is required." Winston Churchill

Completed the Certificate Program in Plant-Based Nutrition through eCornell and the T. Colin Campbell Foundation, January 11, 2011.

larkl
Paddler
Posts: 46
Joined: December 15th, 2007, 11:20 pm
Location: Ithaca NY

Knee arthritis

Post by larkl » December 19th, 2007, 1:50 pm

It would surely make it easier on the arthritis not to flex your knees a lot when you row.
Laura

User avatar
Byron Drachman
10k Poster
Posts: 1124
Joined: March 23rd, 2006, 9:26 pm

Re: Knee arthritis

Post by Byron Drachman » December 20th, 2007, 4:28 pm

larkl wrote:It would surely make it easier on the arthritis not to flex your knees a lot when you row.
Laura
Maybe fixed-seat rowing on wheels would be of interest. It's a hoot, you get a good upper body workout, and although the legs don't move you still use the leg muscles a lot:

http://www.math.msu.edu/%7Edrachman/cyc ... hmail.html

Byron

larkl
Paddler
Posts: 46
Joined: December 15th, 2007, 11:20 pm
Location: Ithaca NY

Post by larkl » February 7th, 2008, 10:58 am

Bob S. wrote:I found that this exremely restrictive diet was recommended for rheumatiod arthritis, not the degenerative arthritis that most of us develop in old age. I ran this by my daughter, who had been a family practice physician, and she pointed out that rheumatoid arthritis is a disease of the immune system and this diet is designed to try to track down the foods that create allergenic problems with the immune system. Rheumatoid arthritis is indeed a very crippling disease, but not as common as plain old degenerative arthritis.

When I read over that diet, my first reaction was astonishment that the only grain allowed was rice. Even oats, which are highly touted as beneficial, are on the list of nonos.

Bob S.
Actually osteoarthritis also is aggravated by inflammation. If you go into pubmed and look, there is research connecting osteoarthritis (the more common kind of degenerative arthritis) with inflammation.
Foods intolerances often cause joint pain and inflammation and thus long term you'd suspect they'd cause osteoarthritis.
I have a lot of food intolerances. I'm gluten intolerant and most common foods (including everything on that allergy trigger list) make me sick for several days.
People often have food intolerances without knowing it. Before I knew I had all those food reactions, I could only run every other day, a little. You can expose the food reactions with an elimination diet. After I'd eliminated the many foods I had reactions to, I was able to run every day as far as I wanted and my knee didn't hurt.
When my knee turned out to have osteoarthritis I wondered whether all those years of going around with hidden food intolerances and joint inflammation had made it worse. My knee got injured years ago, which causes arthritis, but maybe it would be in better shape now if I hadn't gone around with what was probably hidden celiac disease all that time.
The anti-inflammatory omega-3's help osteoarthritis.
Laura

noh20
Paddler
Posts: 6
Joined: November 28th, 2007, 5:34 pm

Post by noh20 » February 7th, 2008, 5:32 pm

For what its worth,,,


I had all my medial meniscus cartilage removed from my right knee when I was 19…. I’m 51 now….30+ years of an athletic and active life has taken a toll….Have a very osteoarthritic knee…. actually watched on the monitor my last scope in the summer of 05 and could see the damage…. I no longer run… it was during PT from that procedure that I discovered the erg….5mm meters later my knee feels better then it has in a long long while…..Glucosamine and Chondroitin (GC) did nothing for me and I gave it ½ a year,, but I swear by Supartz (sodium hyaluronate joint fluid therapy)… I get the 5 shot protocol twice a year…The only dietary supplement I take is Omega 3….I use this…….

EPA-DHA Balance (Formerly Ultra Pure Omega-3 Fish Oil)
By: Jarrow Formulas

It has a very high concentration of EPA/DHA (the important stuff)…. I take 2 caps at breakfast, 2 at dinner…(Google Omega 3)…. As has been mentioned, a great anti-inflammatory plus many other additional benefits, heart, mind etc…It definitely works for me…When I take a few days of from rowing my knee will hurt…. Most importantly, listen to your body…..

larkl
Paddler
Posts: 46
Joined: December 15th, 2007, 11:20 pm
Location: Ithaca NY

Post by larkl » February 8th, 2008, 9:18 am

noh20 wrote: EPA-DHA Balance (Formerly Ultra Pure Omega-3 Fish Oil)
I can't eat fish anything. I use an EPA-DHA supplement that's made from algae, from water4.net. It's the only supplement from algae that has EPA as well as DHA.
Omega-3's are apparently quite helpful with osteoarthritis.
Laura

RKB
Paddler
Posts: 4
Joined: January 22nd, 2008, 9:04 pm
Location: Oregon

Post by RKB » February 17th, 2008, 1:01 pm

After two medial meniscus repairs during the past 3 years, I have developed osteoarthritis of the knee. I'm 53 and took up rowing to get exercise as my usual forms of exercise such as hiking, mt. climbing and skiing were no longer possible. As long as I get a dose of rowing every day, my knee feels fine. If I don't erg for a couple of days it feels worse. My problem is the femoral-tibial interface is bone on bone but rowing does not seem to irritate it at all.

I will try upping my omega 3 intake as these posts sound very promising. I do know there is a stem-cell therapy that may be available in a few years. Vets have been injecting autologous, adipose-derived stem cells into the joints of horses and dogs for a few years with amazing results. The cartilage will regenerate with this therapy. The only ongoing human trial for this approach is in Tehran but hopefully this country will pull its head out of the sand regarding stem cell therapy real soon now.
Only dead fish go with the flow

bionic
Paddler
Posts: 9
Joined: May 19th, 2006, 8:27 am
Location: UK

Glucosamine and Chondroitin

Post by bionic » February 24th, 2008, 10:52 am

If anyone is interested I have written an article with an overview of some of the latest research on glucosamine and chondroitin and osteoarthritis. You can find it at - http://www.kneeguru.co.uk/insights/doku ... /overview4

Also, I have a website http://www.cartilagehealth.com and there are a lot of related articles and information on articular cartilage and exercise on the website.

Hope this is helpful.

Karen

JRT6
Paddler
Posts: 3
Joined: June 28th, 2008, 4:24 am

Post by JRT6 » July 1st, 2008, 9:38 am

I used to run so when my knee arthritis got worse I was told that rowing was a good alternative (I don't bend my knees deep)

Other people who develop arthritis who were rowers get told to stop rowing.

So what is right?

I believe that continued use of a joint is mandatory for the joint longevity. For instance I do deep barbell squats and my knees have show very little change in the last 13 years. Running is 2.5 times your body weight on each and every step. Rowing is a non impact, the resistance and depth of the row is allways variable. And most importantly rowing be can part of a mutli exercise approach. In other words; I do mostly sprints and finishers to keep the volume low, I don't bend my knees more than reaching them with the handle and I don't row every day.

There is allways "a way" we just have to willing to find it. However if in fact rowing is particularly bad for certain conditions suffered by you then I have been there before, it sucks but not the end of the world.
Last edited by JRT6 on July 1st, 2008, 1:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.

JRT6
Paddler
Posts: 3
Joined: June 28th, 2008, 4:24 am

Post by JRT6 » July 1st, 2008, 9:48 am

I wanted to add that I am new to rowing so I have just gotten over my breakin period of finding my style and I wanted to empasize that only bending my knees about 1/3 the way on each stroke is the most comfortable, yet I'm still getting a great workout.

When I watch the instructional with the full knee compression I can see why a doctor would say no. My mind is screaming no just watching the video.

User avatar
Hal Morgan
500m Poster
Posts: 89
Joined: March 19th, 2006, 1:37 pm
Location: Eugene, Oregon

Re: Knee arthritis & rowing

Post by Hal Morgan » January 12th, 2009, 10:46 pm

I had a tear in the spring. I had it repaired. They shaved my knee caps took all the fuzz away. He said, "it will be months before you can tolerate kneeling and many more months before you row."

I did believe him but, still wanted to heal early. Every month I would row slow satrt and owrk up to a 2 k by the end of the week and gauge by pain index by how I felt in the mornings until the uncomfort would leave.

I am on the tenth month. I feel like the healing and patience is paying off. I can row with limits to extension. I was never fast. I row on water also and I am slow. For me it is a good row when I get the feeling like I am so lucky to row.

I earned all my injuries. I will pay for the previlage of entering the doing of life. And be paid for them by the VA for the ones I earned while on duty.

I have to row. I hope you find healing more to your benefit than not.

One last thing to remember "it" is a "practice" of medicine.
Sincerely,
Hal Morgan or aka
Harold Muchler
48 1/2 male 192 lbs 5'11"
rowing erg since 9/04
on water since 9/05

rowing it's a niche sport

BobD
1k Poster
Posts: 151
Joined: March 16th, 2006, 12:35 pm
Location: Munich, Germany

Post by BobD » January 13th, 2009, 4:41 am

I tried Glucosamine and Chondroitin (GC) for well over 6 months and it made absolutely no difference in my knees and shoulders. It did dent my wallet severely.

One explanation for the apparent improvement with Glucosamine and Chondroitin (GC) is that Arthritus tends to have flare up periods, people try the Glucosamine and Chondroitin (GC) and when the flare up recedes (which it would anyway) people think the GC helped.

There have been several university studies which could not confirm any improvement using these substances.
Bob in Munich
84yrs, 85 kilos or 187 pounds, 185 cm or
6ft I Row and I ride my E-Bike.

User avatar
Hal Morgan
500m Poster
Posts: 89
Joined: March 19th, 2006, 1:37 pm
Location: Eugene, Oregon

Post by Hal Morgan » January 18th, 2009, 1:13 pm

Twenty years ago when I was lifting and pushing hard to gain mass and muscle we called diet or nutiron pills, expensive urine. I remeber wieght gainer tasted like cake batter.

On topic, around the surgical floor and suites we have been discussing the new injectable for joint pain and joint disease. So far two personal account seem to lead us to believe better than cortisone treatment. I would hate to put the good ortho docs out of business, they are my main source of angst and income. I think as long moderation and motrin once day works. Well what do you think? Has anyone tried the injections? :?:
Sincerely,
Hal Morgan or aka
Harold Muchler
48 1/2 male 192 lbs 5'11"
rowing erg since 9/04
on water since 9/05

rowing it's a niche sport

Locked