Weird HR experience

[elvistcb3577]

I am a non-OTW, non-competitive rower. I row for fitness only. I have put in 3.5 million miles in my 5 seasons. When I consistently row it tends to be daily, and are usually between 30-90 mins sessions. I will do shorter runs out of curiosity or for lack of free time. Obviously,I tend to do these at a higher intensity.

I am by definition a low rate, hard pull rower. It just feels natural to me. When I say low rate I mean low rate (12-15 spm). I also use a variety of damper settings to keep my "muscles" confused. In general, If want to lower my split I choose to pull harder opposed to increasing rate. Please do not lecture me on how I can "better" my split or question my form at a low rate. I am aware of all that. I have no problem getting my HR going and the sweat flowing. Which is the main purpose of my rowing. When doing my sessions I will usually add a sprint session at the end where I increase my rate. Depending on the day and how I feel this is usually 20-28 spm. During these my HR will go into or near the MAX HR range. I have estimated mine to be about 175-180. I usually end around 165-173 depending on many factors. I usually feel exhausted after my rows but not a 10 on pain/I need oxygen scale. Around 7-8.

This brings me to something I have noticed over the years and just recently again. I did a short 15 mins session the other day. When I do my longer rows I slowly increase my split (maintaining rate) which slowly increases my HR. Generally the first 10 mins or so are like a hard warm-up. But when I do shorter sessions I will obviously be pulling a harder sooner and my HR get going faster sooner. In this 15 mins session my HR at the end of the row was 164. But if it wasn't for my HR monitor I would have guessed it was 175. I felt a 9.5. You know that feeling when your lungs are telling you more oxygen please but you can't supply it?

So can anyone explain to me how on a short row ending at HR lower than I typically end a long row felt like my cardio system was working less efficiently? Is there something about easing into HR zones? Are not all HR zones equal at all expended times? Yes I am also aware of cardiac drift but I would assume that would affect longer sessions only.

[Citroen]

Change your estimate by getting a real world test using something like a step test to failure.

[Dangerscouse]

I have the same issue, and it actually happened today too. I have read that if your warm up isn't sufficient, you can take circa 10bpm off your MHR. I don't warm up, so it's quite often an issue that I have. Warm ups just don't help me, but as i get older I'm starting to think that they may do.

I also think that we try and simplify the process too much, and some days you're just not operating as efficiently as usual, and your oxygen utilisation isn't working 100% properly. Have a search for Evan Peikon and read his studies on oxygen limitations.

[elvistcb3577]

Change your estimate by getting a real world test using something like a step test to failure.

My question isn't if my estimate MAXHR is accurate, but is why would the same HR zones in a shorter higher intensity session feel less efficient then the same ones at a longer lower intensity session. That seems feels counter intuitive.

Even if my MAXHR estimate is off (and I will concede it may be) it still is irrelevant to what i am experiencing.

[elvistcb3577]

...I have read that if your warm up isn't sufficient, you can take circa 10bpm off your MHR....
..Have a search for Evan Peikon and read his studies on oxygen limitations...

I will look that up thanks.

[Citroen]

Even if my MAXHR estimate is off (and I will concede it may be) it still is irrelevant to what i am experiencing.

No it's not. Because you're setting the pace based on your estimated max HR. Get that corrected and the other pieces will begin to fall into place.

You've also got to take into account the drive time vs the recover time which changes, non-linearly, as your stroke rate and pace alter. Try using one of the "Paul's Law" pace calculators to see where you're at with 2K, 5K & 10K workouts.

https://www.freespiritsrowing.com/forum ... -predictor

There is a lot to be said for only monitoring HR after a workout to analyse how you did, rather than letting it control your workout in real-time.

[elvistcb3577]

No it's not. Because you're setting the pace based on your estimated max HR. Get that corrected and the other pieces will begin to fall into place.

Yeah. I think I may have muddied my question by throwing in my MHR estimate. It was just a peripheral data point to highlight that I do monitor HR as a measure of effort across and during sessions.

You've also got to take into account the drive time vs the recover time which changes, non-linearly, as your stroke rate and pace alter. Try using one of the "Paul's Law" pace calculators to see where you're at with 2K, 5K & 10K workouts.

Here is the thing. I am not obsessed with these milestone/markers. I know a majority of rowers are (nothing wrong with that). It is just not my goal of erging. I don't row to achieve a PB on the 2000k as an example. I row for fitness and health. And I actually enjoy the whole-body workout. I do keep a general track of my 30/60mins meters, and 10,000 meters time. Only as a reference to mark improvement. I will do a 1 min and 500 time trial for curiosity. But not in sometime. I went through a 8 month erging lull and am getting back into it just past month so trying to catch back up to my fitness levels. As I mentioned I will rate slow (12-15) and will throw in a sprint (here or there, mostly at end) where my rate will increase 20-28. I choose to pull harder to increase effort opposed to rating faster (generally speaking).

That said. My question is still why would a slower HR at the end of a drastically shorter session (15mins) feel like I am working harder and being less efficient aerobically compared to the the end of a longer session (45mins) at a higher HR?

In reality this is not a rowing issue, but a fitness/physiology question with erging as the backdrop. I am inclined to think it may a respiratory thing.

[jamesg]

Fast work only gets comfortable after 15 minutes at least, so might as well take it easy. Call It warm up, endorphines or whatever, it can't be avoided. Most of what we generate Is heat. We are mostly chemistry, which operates faster at higher temperature.

[elvistcb3577]

Fast work only gets comfortable after 15 minutes at least, so might as well take it easy. Call It warm up, endorphines or whatever, it can't be avoided. Most of what we generate Is heat. We are mostly chemistry, which operates faster at higher temperature.

This was my simplistic take on it as well. That my body (machine) hasn't enough time to optimally/fully prime during a shorter session opposed to a longer session. Though I am sure the devil is in the biological details. Now I am curious if it makes sense to purposefully include these short more intense session like a couple a week. Wonder what the fitness implications are?

[Tony Cook]

To me it’s simply about warm up. If I am going to row hard - max 2k pace or faster - I have to warm up for 20 minutes. Any less and I feel terrible in the piece.

[Carl Watts]

What about pace, no mention of pace here.

12-15 spm is pretty low. I have trouble getting down to 12spm even on a 2:15 pace Cool Down row.

15spm is okay on longer rows at 2:08 pace, its a good workout and sweat from about the half way mark on a 30 minute.

At such low ratings your pace is going to have a huge effect. Also unless your using ErgData you don't really get an accurate idea of your rating and the difference in your HR between say an actual 14 and 15spm becomes that 10bpm.

The "Top Line result" in the monitor has a huge rounding problem so you cannot compare one row to another without the total stroke counter in ErgData.

ErgData allows you to workout you spm to 0.1spm and you need this on low rating rows.

On top of this you have temperature and humidity variations, hence I put this in the comments of the LogBook. You need quite a lot of information to be able to directly compare one row to another.

[elvistcb3577]

What about pace, no mention of pace here.

12-15 spm is pretty low. I have trouble getting down to 12spm even on a 2:15 pace Cool Down row.

15spm is okay on longer rows at 2:08 pace, its a good workout and sweat from about the half way mark on a 30 minute.

Yes I know. But it has always been more natural for me to pull harder opposed to faster. I will rate up if I want to do a short sprint doing my rows to confuse things up a bit. Since I row for fitness I am not too concerned with being split efficient. Just looking for good workouts.

At such low ratings your pace is going to have a huge effect. Also unless your using ErgData you don't really get an accurate idea of your rating and the difference in your HR between say an actual 14 and 15spm becomes that 10bpm.

The "Top Line result" in the monitor has a huge rounding problem so you cannot compare one row to another without the total stroke counter in ErgData.

ErgData allows you to workout you spm to 0.1spm and you need this on low rating rows.

On top of this you have temperature and humidity variations, hence I put this in the comments of the LogBook. You need quite a lot of information to be able to directly compare one row to another.

I have always wondered how accurate the PM is across different rates/DF. Are you suggesting my results as a whole may be off because of the low rating?

That said, I think my original topic of thread here is suggesting that warmups affect rowing efficiency (or at least perceived effort). Does anyone know of any literature/research that show physiology of this cause and effect?

[Carl Watts]

The PM averages the rating and rounds the number.

Concept 2 has never been very clear on exactly how it does this but regardless its not accurate due to the rounding to the nearest whole number.

What I'm saying is the lower the rating then the bigger the percentage error and also the lower the rating the bigger the physical effect of heartrate change is. The two combine to make inconsistent results.

You simply cannot directly compare what seems to be an identical row on the PM to another without ErgData.

ErgData captures you exact stroke count so you can get out the calculator after the row and work out your spm to the nearest 0.1, then if you also factor in the temperature and humidity you can begin to compare one row to another in regards to heartrate. Suddenly you will find your average HR only changes 1 or 2 bpm average and the variation can start to be attributed to being more or less tired or overtraining or constant drops due to improved fitness etc.

[Tsnor]

I have always wondered how accurate the PM is across different rates/DF. Are you suggesting my results as a whole may be off because of the low rating?

That said, I think my original topic of thread here is suggesting that warmups affect rowing efficiency (or at least perceived effort). Does anyone know of any literature/research that show physiology of this cause and effect?

re: ".. how accurate the PM is across different rates/DF.. " PM5 is accurate across different rates/DF. It is measuring power output by the spin down of the flywheel each stroke. If there were any quirks in PM5 measurements you'd see 100 threads about getting a PB by exploiting the quirk... Think your results will be different at a higher stroke rate not because PM5 measures differently, but because you will actually be more efficient and produce better splits at the same effort level at a somewhat higher stroke rate. That said, it's unclear if a higher or lower stroke rate makes for a better exercise which is likely your goal.

Re: "Does anyone know of any literature/research that show physiology of this cause and effect?"

like this?? -->

"For each power output, there’s a stroke rate at which total energy consumption is minimal, which means an athlete needs the least fuel. For a given power output, this is the most efficient stroke rate. Translated to rowing on the water, this means there’s a most efficient stroke rate for a certain rowing speed, and it goes up with the required power output and rowing speed.

"The relationship between energy consumption and moving speed is not the same for every rower, and it’s affected by other factors–body weight, fatigue, technique, conditioning, etc., as well as rigging, water, and temperature. The shape of the curve can be influenced also by training, since properly conditioned muscles get stronger and more efficient. " https://www.rowingnews.com/2021/04/17/a ... roke-rate/

or like this?? -->

"Changes in stroke frequency (f), displacement of the oar handgrip (Do), and the mean force applied to the oarlock pin (Fc) are shown in Fig. 3, as functions of mechanical power (I~o). Linear increases of Fc were observed with increasing
1~o, whereas Do was independent of Wo. A small increment in f occurred with low rowing intensities (less than about 100 W of I~o). " http://bionics.seas.ucla.edu/education/ ... 986_01.pdf

You'll find a few threads and a lot of differing opinions on stroke rate for erging as exercise. Stroke rate for setting personal bests is pretty clear -- try a few different rates for long enough to be comfortable with them, and then select the stroke rate that works best for you.

[ukaserex]

Change your estimate by getting a real world test using something like a step test to failure.

My question isn't if my estimate MAXHR is accurate, but is why would the same HR zones in a shorter higher intensity session feel less efficient then the same ones at a longer lower intensity session. That seems feels counter intuitive.

Even if my MAXHR estimate is off (and I will concede it may be) it still is irrelevant to what i am experiencing.

There's a few reasons this could occur off the top of my head.
Nutrition differences between the preceding 24 - 36 hours compared to previous nutritional intake & similar efforts.
Poor sleep quality or insufficient quantity.
Higher humidity/different climate. (warmer)

I row in my garage. And in my attempts to give Maffetone's method a shot, I've been making a note about how well I slept, my hrv score, and the temperature in my garage. Poor sleep - my HR will exceed the 70% target if I'm not paying attention a lot sooner than other days. If it's warmer, even going from 80 fahrenheit to 83, the HR will climb a lot faster. Makes sense, I'm working harder. But if I didn't make those observations, I'd have been puzzled trying to figure out why I'm getting slower instead of faster, over the same distance.