Max heart rate

General discussions about getting and staying fit that don't relate directly to your indoor rower
wpuk
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Max heart rate

Post by wpuk » July 18th, 2021, 12:10 pm

What would be a reliable way to get a max heart reading on a rower (I haven't updated mine in a while)

Previously I'd just go a treadmill go balls out and have the incline slowly creep up.

Running's not an option now, is there a "best" way to do it on a rower?

Tsnor
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Re: Max heart rate

Post by Tsnor » July 18th, 2021, 10:23 pm

Max heart rate is sport dependent. So you are correct, for rowing you want to get a different max HR then the treadmill one.

Since max heart rate is exactly that, and it does not change as you get more fit, you just need to keep track of the highest HR you've seen rowing/erging.

You do need at least 10 mins of warmup / hard work to set a max. And the piece where you set it typically needs to be over 4 mins or your heart does not have a chance to rise to max.

Consider doing four 2K intervals with 3 mins rest between them. If you push hard towards the end of the second or third interval you will very likely hit your max HR. Depending on your warmup it will be the second or third interval, likely not the first. Might even be the fourth.

(note to new rowers: People new to rowing and who also have strong aerobic training from cycling or running may not be able to set a max HR until they get their back/abs to the point they can use all that oxygen)

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Re: Max heart rate

Post by jamesg » July 19th, 2021, 1:46 am

What would be a reliable way to get a max heart reading on a rower
Depends on your style. If you pull a big stroke, after a 10 minute warm-up any distance over 3-400m can show MHR and cause failure.

5-minute 2'R intervals done at increasing ratings, the first 1-2 at warmup level, seems to integrate training with checks on style and MHR. This to failure can be done once a week.
08-1940, 183cm, 84kg. Last seen MHR 158 in 2k = 220 - 77% of age.
2021-2: stroke 6 W-min. ½k 1:55.5; 1k 4:09.2; 2k 8:42.2; 5k 23:15; 30' 6247; 10k 49:36.

wpuk
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Re: Max heart rate

Post by wpuk » July 19th, 2021, 6:04 am

Thank you.

It was mainly due to having not checked it for a good 10 years and I was aware it decreases as you get older.

I wasn't aware I needed to adjust it to be sport specific - thank you.

I'll try interval approach with a couple aimed at being +4 minutes

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hjs
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Re: Max heart rate

Post by hjs » July 19th, 2021, 8:02 am

wpuk wrote:
July 19th, 2021, 6:04 am
Thank you.

It was mainly due to having not checked it for a good 10 years and I was aware it decreases as you get older.

I wasn't aware I needed to adjust it to be sport specific - thank you.

I'll try interval approach with a couple aimed at being +4 minutes
Its not sport specific perse. But more training specific.

Re your max, do a 20 min piece, and go for broke in the last 5 min. Should give you a good idea.

GlennUk
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Re: Max heart rate

Post by GlennUk » July 19th, 2021, 8:35 am

FWIW I did a specific HRmax test, increasing paces until failure and the max HR recorded was not a true HR max.

When i looked back over my C2 logbook and prior to starting restricted HR/SR/pace regime i'm following, my HR regularly exceeded the value i saw during the specific test which made me somewhat suspicious it was not correct.

The value i am using as my HRmax now was observed following a a CTC entry (3miles 3min rest, 2miles 2min rest, 1mile) towards the last 1 min 20 of the final mile, for me this was an exercise over a period of 43minutes of rowing plus resting times, the point being you may want to do a couple of tests to try to get a true reflection of HRmax rather than use a single event.
I reached 60 Jan 1,21, I decided to do 60k to raise money for https://www.havenshospices.org.uk/, then thought i would go further, 115,972m.

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Re: Max heart rate

Post by Dangerscouse » July 19th, 2021, 10:54 am

Glenn makes a good point. I find my HR only really seems to max out when I do circa 16k+, but my HR is unusual and is probably best described as lazy.

It is defo worth doing a few different types of sessions to really test you, as I have failed at circa 165 despite an assumed max of 175. I say assumed as I have seen it a couple of times, but I've not had a formal test done.
47 HWT; 6' 4"; 1k= 3:09; 2k= 6:36; 5k= 17:19; 6k= 20:47; 10k= 35:46 30mins= 8,488m 60mins= 16,618m HM= 1:16.47; FM= 2:40:41; 50k= 3:16:09; 100k= 7:52:44; 12hrs = 153km

"You reap what you row"

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ampire
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Re: Max heart rate

Post by ampire » July 19th, 2021, 3:25 pm

I saw the highest I've seen to date doing an all out 5km time trial at R30. Heart rate reached low 190s and stayed in that region for the final 5 minutes of the piece, it didn't go any higher, I figured that was my max.
M35|5'8"/173CM|146lb/66KG|LWT|MHR 192|RHR 42|2020: 5K 18:52.9 (@1:53.2/500)|C2-D+Slides+EndureRow Seat+NSI Minicell Foam

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Re: Max heart rate

Post by mict450 » July 24th, 2021, 12:12 am

I've been reading Joe Friel a lot. Makes sense to me to find your lactate/anaerobic threshold heart rate directly, rather than trying to extrapolate it from maximum heart rate, as 2 people may have the same maximum, but differing points when lactate threshold occurs.
Eric, YOB:1954
Shasta County, CA, small town USA

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Re: Max heart rate

Post by Tsnor » July 25th, 2021, 6:52 pm

mict450 wrote:
July 24th, 2021, 12:12 am
I've been reading Joe Friel a lot. Makes sense to me to find your lactate/anaerobic threshold heart rate directly, rather than trying to extrapolate it from maximum heart rate, as 2 people may have the same maximum, but differing points when lactate threshold occurs.
How would one go about doing that ?

This ref https://missadventurepants.com/blog/lac ... -threshold says
1) GAS EXCHANGE TEST. This lab test is the most accurate lactate test available. Usually this means visiting the exercise physiology department of a research university. Not sure how I would do that, or why they would agree to help.
2)NEAR INFRARED SPECTROSCOPY (NIRS)
Consumer devices are now available that can plot your lactate curve based on HR and oxygen saturation levels in your muscles. Simply strap the monitor band to your thigh or calf, do your normal workout, and the software does the rest. The downside: most NIRS technology is still cost-prohibitive for amateur athletes. (For example, the Moxy Monitor starts at $800 before add-ons and software.)
$800? Non-starter
3) HANDHELD LACTATE ANALYZER
These devices work a bit like the glucose monitors used by diabetics. Just establish a steady state heart rate, prick your finger, squeeze the blood onto a testing strip, and stick it in the machine for a reading. Boom, there's a data point for your lactate v. heart rate graph. Repeat the test at different heart rates to construct your lactate curve. You can buy your own lactate analyzer for $280 to $350, plus the cost of lancets and strips.

4) HEART RATE MONITOR
Garmin, Wahoo Fitness, and other heart rate monitor manufacturers have developed HR algorithms that can be used (in theory) to estimate your aerobic and anaerobic thresholds.
Back to using heart rate % max, etc. as an indicator of lactate/anaerobic threshold

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Re: Max heart rate

Post by mict450 » July 25th, 2021, 11:31 pm

Tsnor, Joe Friel recommends simple field test. Time trial 30 minutes. Average heart rate of last 20 minutes should be close to lactate threshold heart rate.

From there, plug in that HR to his Web site for HR zones. Off the top of my head, 0 to 85% for SS zone, greater than 99% for intervals. Stay away from middle gray zone. Follows polarized training regimen. Easy should be easy so hard will be hard.

I use Heart Rate Zones app by HC Studios to calculate my zones. Slightly differing percentages used but close enough for me, based on my RPE.

Not an expert on his training, but this is my understanding of his methodology.
Eric, YOB:1954
Shasta County, CA, small town USA

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Re: Max heart rate

Post by Tsnor » July 26th, 2021, 11:10 pm

mict450 wrote:
July 25th, 2021, 11:31 pm
Tsnor, Joe Friel recommends simple field test. Time trial 30 minutes. Average heart rate of last 20 minutes should be close to lactate threshold heart rate.

From there, plug in that HR to his Web site for HR zones. Off the top of my head, 0 to 85% for SS zone, greater than 99% for intervals. Stay away from middle gray zone. Follows polarized training regimen. Easy should be easy so hard will be hard.

I use Heart Rate Zones app by HC Studios to calculate my zones. Slightly differing percentages used but close enough for me, based on my RPE.

Not an expert on his training, but this is my understanding of his methodology.
I'm missing something. Average heart rate of last 20 minutes should be close to lactate threshold heart rate.

For me a 30 minute time trial (max effort for 30 mins) is a max heart rate effort. My max is ~ 175, I'll be at 160 to 170+ doing a 30 minute trial for the last 20 mins. Seiler's Polarized training uses max HR approximation to find lactate threshold HR (example, Lactate threshold HR = 78% of max HR) if you don't do blood tests. See this Seiler teaching rowing coaches video at 14:13. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-l1qUftZurw so my lactate threshold is about 175 x 0.78 = 136.5. NO WAY my last 20 minute average from a 30 min tmie trial is 136.5

Original quote said "find your lactate/anaerobic threshold heart rate directly, rather than trying to extrapolate it from maximum heart rate" Time trial for 30 mins to get HR then take % of that seems like extrapolating threshold from heart rate rather than measuring it directly.

EDIT: maybe I'm confused on what's in a 30 minute time trial.

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Re: Max heart rate

Post by Tsnor » July 26th, 2021, 11:44 pm

hjs wrote:
July 19th, 2021, 8:02 am
wpuk wrote:
July 19th, 2021, 6:04 am
Thank you.

It was mainly due to having not checked it for a good 10 years and I was aware it decreases as you get older.

I wasn't aware I needed to adjust it to be sport specific - thank you.

I'll try interval approach with a couple aimed at being +4 minutes
Its not sport specific perse. But more training specific.

Re your max, do a 20 min piece, and go for broke in the last 5 min. Should give you a good idea.
Actually max HR is sport specific. Swimming is lying down. Running is standing. Not shocking that max HR for the same person is different in swimming vs running. Rowing is in the middle somewhere from a posture perspective, but has different VO2 max requirements than either. Example: here is a table of measured values for people doing both running and swimming max HR tests. https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/3172669 ... re-2-uid-1 in this study "Maximal heart rate was 6.7 ± 5.3 bpm lower for swimming compared to running " https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/31726693/ where "a secondary aim was to determine the difference in maximal heart rate between front crawl swimming and running among elite swimmers. "

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Re: Max heart rate

Post by mict450 » July 27th, 2021, 2:28 am

Tsnor wrote:
July 26th, 2021, 11:10 pm

For me a 30 minute time trial (max effort for 30 mins) is a max heart rate effort. My max is ~ 175, I'll be at 160 to 170+ doing a 30 minute trial for the last 20 mins. Seiler's Polarized training uses max HR approximation to find lactate threshold HR (example, Lactate threshold HR = 78% of max HR) if you don't do blood tests. See this Seiler teaching rowing coaches video at 14:13. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-l1qUftZurw so my lactate threshold is about 175 x 0.78 = 136.5. NO WAY my last 20 minute average from a 30 min tmie trial is 136.5

Original quote said "find your lactate/anaerobic threshold heart rate directly, rather than trying to extrapolate it from maximum heart rate" Time trial for 30 mins to get HR then take % of that seems like extrapolating threshold from heart rate rather than measuring it directly.

EDIT: maybe I'm confused on what's in a 30 minute time trial.
Peter, here's a direct quote from Mr Friel's blog:


"It’s not hard to find your lactate threshold heart rate (LTHR) by doing a 30-minute time trial. All that’s required is running (or riding) as hard as you can possibly go for 30 minutes ALL BY YOURSELF. It must be solo. Doing this as a part of a race or with training partners will change the outcome. Your number will be too high. If you want to do it with others or as a part of a race then you need to make it a 60-minute duration instead of 30.

Once you’ve captured the data in your device, download it to your software and find your average heart rate for the last 20 minutes. That’s an approximation of your LTHR (also often referred to as anaerobic threshold or functional threshold heart rate). If you don’t have software, all you have to do is push the lap button 10 minutes into the test. That will then capture the last 20 minutes as a standalone “interval.” Your average heart rate for that portion is close to your LTHR. Note that this DOES NOT mean that you go easy for 10 minutes and then turn it on with 20 minutes remaining. It’s 30 minutes all-out."


Hope this explains it better.
Eric, YOB:1954
Shasta County, CA, small town USA

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hjs
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Re: Max heart rate

Post by hjs » July 27th, 2021, 3:00 am

Tsnor wrote:
July 26th, 2021, 11:44 pm
hjs wrote:
July 19th, 2021, 8:02 am
wpuk wrote:
July 19th, 2021, 6:04 am
Thank you.

It was mainly due to having not checked it for a good 10 years and I was aware it decreases as you get older.

I wasn't aware I needed to adjust it to be sport specific - thank you.

I'll try interval approach with a couple aimed at being +4 minutes
Its not sport specific perse. But more training specific.

Re your max, do a 20 min piece, and go for broke in the last 5 min. Should give you a good idea.
Actually max HR is sport specific. Swimming is lying down. Running is standing. Not shocking that max HR for the same person is different in swimming vs running. Rowing is in the middle somewhere from a posture perspective, but has different VO2 max requirements than either. Example: here is a table of measured values for people doing both running and swimming max HR tests. https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/3172669 ... re-2-uid-1 in this study "Maximal heart rate was 6.7 ± 5.3 bpm lower for swimming compared to running " https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/31726693/ where "a secondary aim was to determine the difference in maximal heart rate between front crawl swimming and running among elite swimmers. "
Yes, But thats not the whole story. Often when you are not trained for a sport, not hf but local muscle fatique will be the limiting factor. A top swimmer will not be able to get hf op with cycling or running like he can with swimming.

When you are alround trained vertical versus horizontal matters.

I for example, on a bike, not get a high hf on a bike, my quads give in.
And on the skierg, standing up, hf is does not reach my rowing numbers. The limit is not my heart but the smaller muscles that have to do the work.

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