Thinking of adding the kettlebell swing to my KB routine

[Ombrax]

Currently on days when I row and do KB's I typically do the following:

Row for around 20-30 minutes

10 minute cool-down on a treadmill

12 Turkish get ups (L then R side)
12 Arm Bar (L then R side)
3 x 10 Bicep curl + overhead press

So, I'm thinking that it might be nice to finish with some swings.

Here's my primarily question:

Are KB swings simple enough for me to learn on my own (i.e. Youtube) without a significant risk of injury to my back?
Or would it be smart to learn from someone who knows how to teach the right way to do it to others?

A while back I took a small-group training class for a while, where I learned the TGU and the arm-bar, but I was too busy to continue the class and had to bail before learning the swing.

TIA

[T_M]

I incorporated kettlebells in my rowing and lifting routine several years ago and found the basic swings pretty easy to master after watching a couple of videos. Have fun.

[Cayenne]

IMO (and I don't consider myself, whatsoever, an "expert" and certainly not a "coach", but as a fitness enthusiast who did take a one day Pavel seminar in around year 2000 (just before his popularity caught fire,) and then, over the next few years, a one-day "Coach Certification" with (Girevoy Sport Former World Champion) Valery Federenko (sp?) a Mike Mahler seminar and a Steve Cotter seminar*, and who, has been doing pretty much swings as a "stand alone, daily minimum" almost every single day for about 3.5 years, (doubling up when I miss a day,) you "may" be able to teach yourself, no problem. Here are the considerations, as I see them:

As with all abilities, the Bell Curve, I believe, describes the level of body / kinisthetic awareness people have. Some folks, "get it" by seeing it once. Some folks can't "translate" a movement they see, are guided through, and repeat many times, until they've performed it, many, many, many times. Without judgment and without intending offense, some folks are agile, some are clumsy. (I like the "Theory of Multiple Intelligences". Some folks are great at math, some at being empathetic, some at swinging a kettlebell, etc.)

You know yourself. Which end of the Bell Curve are you closer to? I'd say,most important is the hip hinge (i.e., don't round the lower back,) and (another way of saying almost the same thing,) keep a neutral spine. That will keep you safe. From there, cues like, "imagine you're jumping without feet leaving the ground," etc., may provide helpful details.

Now, it never hurts to have a trained eye get you started to make sure your form is injury-safe, to instill good habits and to avoid training bad habits that would be more inconvenient (difficult?) to "unlearn" later. The considerations are economics, time, access, convenience, etc. The swing itself, if you're not a "body movement challenged" person, ain't rocket science. You may end up with an "expert" and find them simply saying, "Wow! That looks really good" or maybe just making a few tweaks. (Then again, you may fall into the "Hard Style" vs. "Kettlebell Sport" quicksand and find a coach who tells you how the one he or she does not subscribe to is all wrong, etc.)

(* The teachers I mentioned cover the gamut from "hard style" to "kettlebell sport".)

If I was learning from scratch, I'd try to find a Steve Cotter seminar.

HTH.

Swing away

[Ombrax]

Thanks guys.

I think I'll give it a shot on my own and if it seems to be going well, take it from there. If things don't seem to be working out I'll find someone who does know how to do it to set me straight.

Hip hinge, straight back, don't try to do too much too soon, etc...

[StrengthCoachWill]

Remember that kettlebells are a sport to some people, whereas kettlebells are simply a means to an end for rowers interested in developing stronger posterior chains and better lumbopelvic coordination. When we use training methods from other sports, we should be careful to draw a line between techniques for sport performance and techniques for development of general qualities. For example, the level of detail required of a powerlifter to their squat or deadlift is not the same as that of a rower. I totally believe that most people can achieve sufficient proficiency on a kettlebell swing to benefit their general fitness and rowing performance. Now, a coach of kettlebell sport, or a kettlebell specialist, would likely be able to improve this further. However, is this benefiting your rowing performance, or your kettlebell performance? Keep the goal the goal in your training.

Cayenne provides a nice example of this point:

(Then again, you may fall into the "Hard Style" vs. "Kettlebell Sport" quicksand and find a coach who tells you how the one he or she does not subscribe to is all wrong, etc.)

I have written on some of the research on kettlebells in the sport training context, and have some links to further information and instruction targeted to rowers on my website: https://rowingstronger.com/2019/04/29/k ... -training/

I'm happy to help answer questions you have as you get into the lift. I think it's a great one for rowers.

[Cayenne]

Remember that kettlebells are a sport to some people, whereas kettlebells are simply a means to an end for rowers interested in developing stronger posterior chains and better lumbopelvic coordination. When we use training methods from other sports, we should be careful to draw a line between techniques for sport performance and techniques for development of general qualities. For example, the level of detail required of a powerlifter to their squat or deadlift is not the same as that of a rower. I totally believe that most people can achieve sufficient proficiency on a kettlebell swing to benefit their general fitness and rowing performance. Now, a coach of kettlebell sport, or a kettlebell specialist, would likely be able to improve this further. However, is this benefiting your rowing performance, or your kettlebell performance? Keep the goal the goal in your training.

Cayenne provides a nice example of this point:

(Then again, you may fall into the "Hard Style" vs. "Kettlebell Sport" quicksand and find a coach who tells you how the one he or she does not subscribe to is all wrong, etc.)

I have written on some of the research on kettlebells in the sport training context, and have some links to further information and instruction targeted to rowers on my website: https://rowingstronger.com/2019/04/29/k ... -training/

I'm happy to help answer questions you have as you get into the lift. I think it's a great one for rowers.

Hi StrengthCoachWill

I get a chuckle out of the ubiquitous, perhaps cliche' but still true, "it depends what your goals are" reply to most questions on fitness forums. I should have mentioned that in my initial reply. Thank you for making that important point in your reply. (i.e., "Keep the goal the goal in your training.") As for myself, I am a desk jockey - generalist, with no competitive aspirations at this time, just want to feel great as long as possible, die young as old as possible, etc. Thank you for linking to your site. I am excited to read through it.

[StrengthCoachWill]

Hi StrengthCoachWill

I get a chuckle out of the ubiquitous, perhaps cliche' but still true, "it depends what your goals are" reply to most questions on fitness forums. I should have mentioned that in my initial reply. Thank you for making that important point in your reply. (i.e., "Keep the goal the goal in your training.") As for myself, I am a desk jockey - generalist, with no competitive aspirations at this time, just want to feel great as long as possible, die young as old as possible, etc. Thank you for linking to your site. I am excited to read through it.

Thanks, Cayenne. Please let me know if you have questions on what you read. Goals are important to clarify. I need to remember to do so more often when answering questions around here, as it seems pretty split on folks erging for performance/racing and those erging for recreation/general fitness. Both are great, but have very different answers to similar questions.

[jackarabit]

Coach Will. Is a 12 kilo bell heavy enuf for me? My left shoulder sez it is. I also have a little pink 8. Bit puny for swings that one but about right for overhead. Thought about painting it a heavier color. My principle daily weight sesssion is carrying two buckets of AC condenser water (60-70 lbs) up the cellar stairs twice daily. My legs are telling me it will soon be one at a time.

[Ombrax]

My principle daily weight sesssion is carrying two buckets of AC condenser water (60-70 lbs) up the cellar stairs twice daily. My legs are telling me it will soon be one at a time.

Time for a condensate pump. I got mine at Grainger and they work quite well - should be able to lift the water out of the basement with no problems at all.

Of course taking the water out yourself is good exercise, but it's always more fun to do exercise you choose to do instead of exercise you have to do. Plus, you don't risk tripping as you go up the stairs...

[jackarabit]

Don’t have to. Routed to floor drain and sump pump. But it’s 5 to 10 gallon per day in 90°+ weather and very expensive to produce. I have a 75 gal water tank for watering garden with chlorine-dissipated tap water but this helps.

I don’t have to mow .5 acre of lawn with a walk behind mower but I do. I don’t have to help my neighbors chop and lop the multiflora rose and oriental bittersweet plague and haul it to the free state waste site but I do. There are several things i’m supposed to be doing that I don’t even bother with. No me importa.

[badge48]

IMO (and I don't consider myself, whatsoever, an "expert" and certainly not a "coach", but as a fitness enthusiast who did take a one day Pavel seminar in around year 2000 (just before his popularity caught fire,) and then, over the next few years, a one-day "Coach Certification" with (Girevoy Sport Former World Champion) Valery Federenko (sp?) a Mike Mahler seminar and a Steve Cotter seminar*, and who, has been doing pretty much swings as a "stand alone, daily minimum" almost every single day for about 3.5 years, (doubling up when I miss a day,) you "may" be able to teach yourself, no problem. Here are the considerations, as I see them:

As with all abilities, the Bell Curve, I believe, describes the level of body / kinisthetic awareness people have. Some folks, "get it" by seeing it once. Some folks can't "translate" a movement they see, are guided through, and repeat many times, until they've performed it, many, many, many times. Without judgment and without intending offense, some folks are agile, some are clumsy. (I like the "Theory of Multiple Intelligences". Some folks are great at math, some at being empathetic, some at swinging a kettlebell, etc.)

You know yourself. Which end of the Bell Curve are you closer to? I'd say,most important is the hip hinge (i.e., don't round the lower back,) and (another way of saying almost the same thing,) keep a neutral spine. That will keep you safe. From there, cues like, "imagine you're jumping without feet leaving the ground," etc., may provide helpful details.

Now, it never hurts to have a trained eye get you started to make sure your form is injury-safe, to instill good habits and to avoid training bad habits that would be more inconvenient (difficult?) to "unlearn" later. The considerations are economics, time, access, convenience, etc. The swing itself, if you're not a "body movement challenged" person, ain't rocket science. You may end up with an "expert" and find them simply saying, "Wow! That looks really good" or maybe just making a few tweaks. (Then again, you may fall into the "Hard Style" vs. "Kettlebell Sport" quicksand and find a coach who tells you how the one he or she does not subscribe to is all wrong, etc.)

(* The teachers I mentioned cover the gamut from "hard style" to "kettlebell sport".)

If I was learning from scratch, I'd try to find a Steve Cotter seminar.

HTH.

Swing away

Hi Cayenne. What is your daily minimum kB swing routine pls pls?

[mdpfirrman]

Before Bret Contrares became the Butt Guru for all females that know anything about bodybuilding, he put out some great information on Kettlebell Swings. If you look for his article around 2012 and 2013, great stuff.

He ended up moving toward other things before he wrote the now famous book, Strong Curves, I would suspect because he realized that 1) it was a losing battle to get gyms to stock really heavy KBs (he recommends one third of your body weight) and 2) that would present liabilities to gyms having your average weekend Joe chucking around 80 lb KBs and breaking mirrors and dislocating elbows along the way.

BTW, Getups are way harder than swings. I've done Getups, but I'm very cautious with them. Once you do a swing the right way, you'll know it. Straight back, all from the hips to generate the force, quick ballistic movements. What you usually see in a gym is a squat, then lift from the back with the KB -- a sure fire way for injury.

https://www.t-nation.com/training/are-h ... -deadlifts

[Cayenne]

Swing away

Hi Cayenne. What is your daily minimum kB swing routine pls pls?

Hi Badge48: I PM'd you.