Training with a DVT
Re: Training with a DVT
Trying to put two-and-two together after reading recent posts on UT vs AT/TR training and thinking about blood clots in the process. On a hunch I went looking for connections between lactic acid and blood clots. I know you can find almost anything on the web, and the first link I came across http://thrombo.info/ had this to say:
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Blood Clot Formation: Detritus = soft sticky debris; Blood Clot = Thrombus
• Blood is resin that coagulates into soft debris that forms a healing patch
• Metabolic lactic acid is the hardener that activates the blood clotting mechanism
• Anaerobic cell metabolism generates lactic acid, including cancer, exercise, infection, etc.
• Lactic acid causes blood cells and proteins to coagulate into sticky debris called detritus
• Detritus (blood plasma proteins, platelets, red blood cells) + time → thrombus (blood clot)
Blood is ever ready to form healing patches that cover up injuries from skateboard accidents, or stop internal bleeding following emergency surgery
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Seems to make sense and along the lines of what is being said by Chris Hayes.
So, I guess having lactic acid circulating around for a long time isn't a good thing. And, particularly bad if one goes from extreme exercise to sedentary - which is what I tend to do before a trip, as I think I must get in a hard session before I travel on a long flight, or take a holiday. In another thread, Greg Smith mentions an article on the " Balance of carbohydrate and lipid utilization during exercise: the “crossover” concept" (http://www.c2forum.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=97499; http://www.colorado.edu/intphys/Class/I ... ssover.pdf). The last sentence of the abstract concludes that: "Furthermore, lipid becomes the predominant fuel during recovery from exercises that result in glycogen depletion." I know that after a hard session, and relaxing after a warm shower, my face (and bald head) tends to get oily (or more oily than usual). This oily stuff must be floating in the blood as well from the residual fat burning going on - and probably not a good thing in relation to blood cloting.
So my simple/simplistic take on all of this is:
1. Don't go into hibernation after a hard exercise session, and take lots of liquids to help rid of remaining lactic acid.
2. After a hard exercise session, the cooling down period is critical: a) to remove lactic acid, and b) to help burn off fat. In fact, a hard session and a slow cool off is a good compromise to build aerobic capacity and to burn off fat. Do the hard stuff up front, and then do the slow stuff during the cooling down period, but make sure it is long enough to get rid of the lactic acid. So the question is: how long is "long enough"?
Cheers
-------------------------------------------------
Blood Clot Formation: Detritus = soft sticky debris; Blood Clot = Thrombus
• Blood is resin that coagulates into soft debris that forms a healing patch
• Metabolic lactic acid is the hardener that activates the blood clotting mechanism
• Anaerobic cell metabolism generates lactic acid, including cancer, exercise, infection, etc.
• Lactic acid causes blood cells and proteins to coagulate into sticky debris called detritus
• Detritus (blood plasma proteins, platelets, red blood cells) + time → thrombus (blood clot)
Blood is ever ready to form healing patches that cover up injuries from skateboard accidents, or stop internal bleeding following emergency surgery
-------------------------------------------------
Seems to make sense and along the lines of what is being said by Chris Hayes.
So, I guess having lactic acid circulating around for a long time isn't a good thing. And, particularly bad if one goes from extreme exercise to sedentary - which is what I tend to do before a trip, as I think I must get in a hard session before I travel on a long flight, or take a holiday. In another thread, Greg Smith mentions an article on the " Balance of carbohydrate and lipid utilization during exercise: the “crossover” concept" (http://www.c2forum.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=97499; http://www.colorado.edu/intphys/Class/I ... ssover.pdf). The last sentence of the abstract concludes that: "Furthermore, lipid becomes the predominant fuel during recovery from exercises that result in glycogen depletion." I know that after a hard session, and relaxing after a warm shower, my face (and bald head) tends to get oily (or more oily than usual). This oily stuff must be floating in the blood as well from the residual fat burning going on - and probably not a good thing in relation to blood cloting.
So my simple/simplistic take on all of this is:
1. Don't go into hibernation after a hard exercise session, and take lots of liquids to help rid of remaining lactic acid.
2. After a hard exercise session, the cooling down period is critical: a) to remove lactic acid, and b) to help burn off fat. In fact, a hard session and a slow cool off is a good compromise to build aerobic capacity and to burn off fat. Do the hard stuff up front, and then do the slow stuff during the cooling down period, but make sure it is long enough to get rid of the lactic acid. So the question is: how long is "long enough"?
Cheers
Re: Training with a DVT
Replying to SlickC2 about a good cool down - I think its more than that - it's about the next day and maybe the next couple of days. Make sure there's an ankle rotating device under the desk, get up and walk around a lot , and so on.
In general ... I would like to imagine that there will be more data coming out, more studies, more publishing in the sports-medical community on this ... hopefully.
Difficult to see, the future is ... But I can imagine a future in which, after a whole generation or two of people over 40 doing intense athletics like biking and rowing - the word will get out to the Vascular and Hematology doctors and even the GPs and this will become common knowledge like so much of the body of common fitness advice.
I can imagine that it will become well understood that people doing these sports - especially working people who then go and sit in an office all day - or even at home in front of a computer - will often be forming clots and having their lungs continually acting as clot filters! I suspect it will be found that these athletic people generally don't get the big ugly massive PEs that kill you right away, but just get a constant sprinkling of the little ones that fill in the lungs at the edges. The hard part is to know whether the rate of absorption by the body is greater than the rate of accumulation. As soon as Walmart starts offering CAT scans, we can go in and check two or three times a year and collect some serious data!
But my guess is that among those of us who are doing serious athletics - even if (especially if) only from time to time - many of us will continue to run the risk of clots. And we are the tip of an iceberg of people who don't even know they have the problem, but don't suffer sudden death because the clot material is small and eventually absorbed. We feel sore calves and ankles, some swelling and some pricks of unexplained chest pains at the upper or lower end - but not heart attack symptoms - we've had a clean bill from the cardiologist and anyway, we have awesome CR capacity. So we just write it off to stress or not enough drinking and move on!
I would like some Doctor who actually knows something about this to comment on my unscientific theories. These are based on my having been forced - like cyclingman - to basically be my own medical manager - filtering the opinions and advice of various medical practitioners who are understandably ignorant of this area in which there is very little data or publishing.
Chris Hayes
Cary, NC
In general ... I would like to imagine that there will be more data coming out, more studies, more publishing in the sports-medical community on this ... hopefully.
Difficult to see, the future is ... But I can imagine a future in which, after a whole generation or two of people over 40 doing intense athletics like biking and rowing - the word will get out to the Vascular and Hematology doctors and even the GPs and this will become common knowledge like so much of the body of common fitness advice.
I can imagine that it will become well understood that people doing these sports - especially working people who then go and sit in an office all day - or even at home in front of a computer - will often be forming clots and having their lungs continually acting as clot filters! I suspect it will be found that these athletic people generally don't get the big ugly massive PEs that kill you right away, but just get a constant sprinkling of the little ones that fill in the lungs at the edges. The hard part is to know whether the rate of absorption by the body is greater than the rate of accumulation. As soon as Walmart starts offering CAT scans, we can go in and check two or three times a year and collect some serious data!
But my guess is that among those of us who are doing serious athletics - even if (especially if) only from time to time - many of us will continue to run the risk of clots. And we are the tip of an iceberg of people who don't even know they have the problem, but don't suffer sudden death because the clot material is small and eventually absorbed. We feel sore calves and ankles, some swelling and some pricks of unexplained chest pains at the upper or lower end - but not heart attack symptoms - we've had a clean bill from the cardiologist and anyway, we have awesome CR capacity. So we just write it off to stress or not enough drinking and move on!
I would like some Doctor who actually knows something about this to comment on my unscientific theories. These are based on my having been forced - like cyclingman - to basically be my own medical manager - filtering the opinions and advice of various medical practitioners who are understandably ignorant of this area in which there is very little data or publishing.
Chris Hayes
Cary, NC
Re: Training with a DVT
Stumbled across this thread. I'm relatively new to erg. Cyclingman you are a wealth of knowledge. Trying the foam cutout for my rear dreadful blisters due to sore butt and blood thinners namely Xrelto. I used to run marathons like many here. Screwed my cartilage up in both knees and switched to cycling. Back in 2013 had a BHR of my right hip and had a DVT below the knee and above. Eventually fixed with meds, wore those sexy stockings and thought nothing of it.
Last year June 2016 my left leg was sore. Presented to Er at local hospital and low and below a DVT below the knee into my abdomen. Specislidt stated it could be catostrophic. Anyway treatment in hospital, majority of clot has gone, solid clot below and above knee. On Xrelto for remainder of life. I still cycle a few times a week but Xrelto has no ante dote if I fall off the bike and will bleed out. I brought the rower as a far safer option. Going great until repeated blisters on my butt. 54 years old4. Blood thinners and weight loss over past 12 months means bits of loose skin. I haven't rowed or excercised for 2 weeks. My rear was red raw in spots. I know my DVT won't stop me. A number of other conditions for which I'm on a cocktail of meds for will. I intend to row more often, longer, if my body allows to keep my demons at bay. Excercise has always been a thing to me. Wihtout it it Leeds to a downhill spiral. I will have to modify as the years progress. Hopefully I am rowing on my indoor rower for many years to come,
Cheers and greetings from down under
Last year June 2016 my left leg was sore. Presented to Er at local hospital and low and below a DVT below the knee into my abdomen. Specislidt stated it could be catostrophic. Anyway treatment in hospital, majority of clot has gone, solid clot below and above knee. On Xrelto for remainder of life. I still cycle a few times a week but Xrelto has no ante dote if I fall off the bike and will bleed out. I brought the rower as a far safer option. Going great until repeated blisters on my butt. 54 years old4. Blood thinners and weight loss over past 12 months means bits of loose skin. I haven't rowed or excercised for 2 weeks. My rear was red raw in spots. I know my DVT won't stop me. A number of other conditions for which I'm on a cocktail of meds for will. I intend to row more often, longer, if my body allows to keep my demons at bay. Excercise has always been a thing to me. Wihtout it it Leeds to a downhill spiral. I will have to modify as the years progress. Hopefully I am rowing on my indoor rower for many years to come,
Cheers and greetings from down under
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- 10k Poster
- Posts: 1787
- Joined: February 7th, 2012, 6:23 pm
- Location: Gainesville, Ga
Re: Training with a DVT
Keep on trucking. Can't let DVTs stop you. Cuts and such do bleed more when on Xarelto, but usually not that much more. I had a bike wreck last year and cut knee pretty bad. I survived. Didn't get stitches, but do have noticeable scar.
The foam cut out can work miracles for some. Butt sores are a show stopper. I carry my foam pad every where I go to erg. It is amazing how many people have the problem and start using a pad. Had a girl at the club just yesterday practically jump all over me for joy when she saw what I was doing. Apparently, she has a lot of pain in the rear. I took her word for it.
The foam cut out can work miracles for some. Butt sores are a show stopper. I carry my foam pad every where I go to erg. It is amazing how many people have the problem and start using a pad. Had a girl at the club just yesterday practically jump all over me for joy when she saw what I was doing. Apparently, she has a lot of pain in the rear. I took her word for it.
JimG, Gainesville, Ga, 78, 76", 205lb. PBs:
66-69: .5,1,2,5,6,10K: 1:30.8 3:14.1 6:40.7 17:34.0 21:18.1 36:21.7 30;60;HM: 8337 16237 1:20:25
70-78: .5,1,2,5,6,10K: 1:32.7 3:19.5 6:58.1 17:55.3 21:32.6 36:41.9 30;60;HM: 8214 15353 1:23:02.5
66-69: .5,1,2,5,6,10K: 1:30.8 3:14.1 6:40.7 17:34.0 21:18.1 36:21.7 30;60;HM: 8337 16237 1:20:25
70-78: .5,1,2,5,6,10K: 1:32.7 3:19.5 6:58.1 17:55.3 21:32.6 36:41.9 30;60;HM: 8214 15353 1:23:02.5
Re: Training with a DVT
CyclingmAn,
Just did an easy 10ks on the tower. The foam cutout worked a treat . What a relief. I didn't muck around, 3 inches thick with a u cutout of the back. Did it in cycling Knicks. Thanks again, a far cheaper option then the foam seat from Concept 2. It will take a bit of getting used to being slightly elevated but now there's no stopping me.
Cheers
Just did an easy 10ks on the tower. The foam cutout worked a treat . What a relief. I didn't muck around, 3 inches thick with a u cutout of the back. Did it in cycling Knicks. Thanks again, a far cheaper option then the foam seat from Concept 2. It will take a bit of getting used to being slightly elevated but now there's no stopping me.
Cheers
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- 2k Poster
- Posts: 371
- Joined: October 21st, 2014, 9:33 am
- Location: Canton, CT; US
Re: Training with a DVT
Came across this study:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4875059/
Acute high-intensity interval rowing increases thrombin (blood clotting) generation in healthy men
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4875059/
Acute high-intensity interval rowing increases thrombin (blood clotting) generation in healthy men
Damien Roohr
60, 6-5, 230 lbs
CT, US
60, 6-5, 230 lbs
CT, US
-
- 10k Poster
- Posts: 1787
- Joined: February 7th, 2012, 6:23 pm
- Location: Gainesville, Ga
Re: Training with a DVT
Damien, nice article, although as with most scientific, technical articles, it is easy to get lost. This article overlaps with SlickC2's post [9-14-15] nearly 3 yrs ago. The idea that intense exercise gives one immunity from health issues is much questioned. I wish I would have known about this stuff ten yrs ago. Perhaps I could have saved myself from a bunch of terrible issues.
Unfortunately, now I have back/hip issues that I have kept me on my back for nine months. The end is not really in sight. Again, I'm very disappointed in medical diagnosis and treatment. You see a bunch of well-respected doctors and get the procedures that they recommend and you are left at the end wondering if they have a clue. Not a whole lot different that what I experienced with my DVT/PE episodes. I think it is likely that I had experienced DVT's/PE's for while before I got a bad case. I went to an ER with some DVT symptoms and the doc actually sent me home and I continued exercising. I probably should consider myself lucky to still be walking on this earth.
Moderation has never been in my vocabulary. It's pretty evident to me that it caught up with me. I could/should have taken more protective actions. Drinking and doing cool downs is not that hard to do.
Unfortunately, now I have back/hip issues that I have kept me on my back for nine months. The end is not really in sight. Again, I'm very disappointed in medical diagnosis and treatment. You see a bunch of well-respected doctors and get the procedures that they recommend and you are left at the end wondering if they have a clue. Not a whole lot different that what I experienced with my DVT/PE episodes. I think it is likely that I had experienced DVT's/PE's for while before I got a bad case. I went to an ER with some DVT symptoms and the doc actually sent me home and I continued exercising. I probably should consider myself lucky to still be walking on this earth.
Moderation has never been in my vocabulary. It's pretty evident to me that it caught up with me. I could/should have taken more protective actions. Drinking and doing cool downs is not that hard to do.
JimG, Gainesville, Ga, 78, 76", 205lb. PBs:
66-69: .5,1,2,5,6,10K: 1:30.8 3:14.1 6:40.7 17:34.0 21:18.1 36:21.7 30;60;HM: 8337 16237 1:20:25
70-78: .5,1,2,5,6,10K: 1:32.7 3:19.5 6:58.1 17:55.3 21:32.6 36:41.9 30;60;HM: 8214 15353 1:23:02.5
66-69: .5,1,2,5,6,10K: 1:30.8 3:14.1 6:40.7 17:34.0 21:18.1 36:21.7 30;60;HM: 8337 16237 1:20:25
70-78: .5,1,2,5,6,10K: 1:32.7 3:19.5 6:58.1 17:55.3 21:32.6 36:41.9 30;60;HM: 8214 15353 1:23:02.5
Re: Training with a DVT
Cyclingman, if you have had repeated DVTs and PEs, you should probably get checked for CTEPH, which is basically pulmonary hypertension. It is debilitating and will eventually lead to heart failure. The pressure on the left side of your heart going to the lungs should be about 20 mmHg, but it can be much higher and that is a very serious problem. You probably need to see a specialist because it is relatively rare and often misdiagnosed. There are some treatments. Let me know if you want more information. (I had CTEPH then PTE, and I am doing much better. I am on warfarin until I die.)Cyclingman1 wrote: ↑August 8th, 2018, 8:44 am
Not a whole lot different that what I experienced with my DVT/PE episodes. I think it is likely that I had experienced DVT's/PE's for while before I got a bad case. I went to an ER with some DVT symptoms and the doc actually sent me home and I continued exercising. I probably should consider myself lucky to still be walking on this earth.
Scott
1 min: 302 M; 500M 1:40.9; 1K 3:42.0; 2K 7:51.6; 5K 20:46; 10K 42:45.6; 30 min: 7147M
Scott
59 Yrs, 5' 7" / 177 lbs (170 cm/80 kg)
Scott
59 Yrs, 5' 7" / 177 lbs (170 cm/80 kg)