Knee arthritis & rowing

[mccartjt]

Hi All

I just came across this part of the Concept 2 Forum.

I have recently gone thru the Regenexx procedure as decribed here on www.regenexx.com 's website. I was suffering from mild arthritis between my rear of my kneecap and my femur. It precluded me from rowing completely.

The outcome of my procedure is still in my future, but I have definately seen improvement. For me it is still early days in recovery but so far I've been able to row 135,000 meters since starting back.

I hope that this helps folks that are suffering from bad knees

Good luck to you all

John McCarthy

[pjc]

I was hoping to bump this up to stimulate some more discussion on rowing and knee injuries.

It seems there is some inconsistent information floating around - some people turn to rowing after running hurts their knees, and do just fine. Others say rowing hurts the knees, or is even the worst thing for knee injuries.

Does anyone have any insight onto why some people hurt their knees from rowing, but others seem to thrive after knee injuries from other sports? Is it an issue of proper form? Or that overtraining is bad, re:less of activity.

I really enjoy the mix of erg+running, and so far it seems better on my knees than running alone, but I would hate to pay the price for this down the road...

[Montanaandy]

Re: knees and rowing - good or bad? This has been discussed before and I guess that there is not a definitive answer. Seems some individuals experience knee problems while rowing while many if not most do not.

I have had two arthroscopic surgeries on my left knee (age 19 & age 31) and had my right hip resurfaced (age 45). I occasionally get pain in my left knee but it is more along the lines of the patella or acl that is tender and not the joint. I think this has more to do with the fact that my left hip is slowly wearing out (dysplasia).

I now row strapless because of my hip and believe that I do not place as much pressure or torque on my knees and hip because I cannot push/pull during the stroke with the same force as when strapped in. I also do longer pieces and don't do the short fly and die pieces that I used to do so this also may be part of why my knee(s) have been relatively pain free.

As has been stated on this board numerous times before, proper form is the key. Bad or improper form can lead to a host of problems. Andy

[pjc]

With re: to proper form helping your knees - I would expect the main problems would be overcompression and overextension? I.e. don't let the shins get past vertical before starting the drive, and don't hyperextend your knees at the end of the drive. This seems like it could be easily solved with some rubber bands on the erg (if you own your own erg) to remind you if the seat slides too far in either direction.

[Nip]

I was told at the VA clinic that I had significant arthrites in my right knee. I smashed it into a wall last fall to further agravate the problem. I could row or use the stationary bike without much pain, but if I worked around the sailing club carrying things I would be unable to walk after a half a day.
I got a shot of cortisone in my knee last month,and it has been a major improvement. However, I was told by a friend who is a G. P. that the cortisone will help three or four times and then it will start doing more harm than good. The Doctor at the VA said that my knee would eventually have to be replaced, but that I should stay active as long as I could. Most of the pain and discomfort is at the bottom part of the knee cap.
I am thinking of getting a second opinion, but in general I have been very happy with VA health care.

[mccartjt]

Hi all

There is a doctor with evidence of regrowing cartilage in Kuala Lumpur Malaysia. See link below

http://www.klsmc.com/


He claims to have fixed full OCD or Osteo Chrondroyle Defects. (Or to you and me, plain old big holes) in ones cartilage! Dr Shaw is a Liverpool University & Edinburgh University trained Fellow of the Royal College of Surgeons, (FRCS). I believe that this consultant surgeon is probably a very competant doctor. He just presented his evidence of these achievements @ the British Orthopaedic Association annual conference. You can google this doctor yourself.

Following up on where I am at, I've had to lay low on the rowing as I had a bulging disc, which is now on the mend. I got an injection of Platelet Lysate from Dr Centeno last Wednesday & today for the first time in 4 months I have had very little to no pain what so ever in my L5S1 area of my back. Since the injection last week the pain has been steadily abating and getting less and less everyday.

There are becoming more and more doctors now out there that are recommending Platelet Rich Plasma injections for general wear and tear for the knees. I know my experience of platelets has made me a believer in their healing powers! I had sciatica and now relatively no pain at all.

I am not now going to jump right back on my C2 Erg but I am looking forward to getting back into a training regime. I may need another 4-6 months off but then I should be good to go.. I'll keep you posted on how my knee works out too.

JM

[TabbRows]

I'll share my recent experience with knees and rowing.

My right knee "went out" last March, partially due to overload of workouts while training for the April Marathon Challenge and still trying to do squats, deadlifts, cleans and other weight routines 3 days a week. My knees have been a issue for years due to injuries sustained in pick up touch football, basketball and volleyball games. This time, they ran a MRI and diagnoised torn menicus in both knees.

Rehabbed for a couple months with stretches and knee specific exercises. Then started back on the erg following Pete Marsten's Beginning Training workout schedule. When that was completed, my knnes felt fine and stronger. My knee exercises had increased the weight bearing. Body weight squats to parallel, 3 sets of 15 reps, seemed to not induce discomfort. So I segued into Pete's 5K training plan as a means of building some enduro and working on power.

Unfortunately, I'm finding 3 weeks into the plan that for interval pieces with ratings of 28-30, my knees are experiencing some grinding and dull aches after the row. Throw in some OTW subbing in crews training for head races with couple of hours of various length pieces at 28-32 spm and the knees beg for a day or two off. For the 10K steady pieces at 22-24 rating, there isn't any knee issues during or after rowing. I haven't really gone on the erg longer than a hour so not sure if longer pieces like half marathon, 2x45 minute or 3 x 6K rows at a low rating wouldn't create similar issues as higher rating interval pieces.

So before I find myself back where I was in March, I'm easing back on the intervals at higher ratings and increasing the rehab knee exercises until I feel the knees have recooperated.

[mwright]

Have had a concept2 for several years, but only used it sporadically until a few weeks leading up to this year's Holiday Challenge. I've had cartilage debridment and microfracture for patellofemoral joint involvement, which was successful for a short time (less than a year). Stopped running because of this, and glucosamine/chondroitin didn't seem to make much difference. I've also had the intraarticular hyaluronic injection (Synvisc), which also didn't do much. Most vigorous activities (hiking, biking) make my knee sore, but I've found the rower hasn't at all, and my knee feels better than usual.

One of the stabilizers of the knee joint, as was earlier mentioned, is the quadriceps medius. That's activated when the leg is nearly fully extended, which is what occurs in rowing. So it makes senses to me that, as I am strengthening that muscle, my knee feels better.

[kayakr]

The second quacky remedy is one I'm almost ashamed to admit to but was helpful. I came across an "arthritis diet" book and was desperate enough to try anything.

That's so quackery, just the oposite. Vegan diet was much better than NSAIDS for me. Anyone with arthritis should give an elimination or whole plant foods diet a go.

[truth1ness]

The latest in PT thinking on knee pain has shifted greatly the last few years. Before blame was placed right at the knee joint like weak inner quad muscles, misaligned tibias, pronated foot, tilted patella, etc (these factors can contribute, especially if it's a major defect, but generally for most of you these are not root causes and actually more symptoms). The earlier post about strengthening the VMO was standard treatment, but this muscle is very hard to isolate (imagine trying to isolate one of the two muscles in your biceps) and results weren't too good. But research is now showing the vast majority of knee problems actually originate at the hip. Specifically weak glutes and external rotation (think of pointing the top of your thigh out to your side, that's external rotation). As your glutes weaken your femur tends to cave inwards and now your kneecap grinds against the outside edge of the groove, the side where almost all kneecap arthritis is worst. I believe this is why some people do well with rowing and others destroy their knees. Those who, by chance or intentionally, are good at activating their glutes get their glutes stronger and stabilize their knee tracking and that leads to healthier knees, those who don't keep grinding and grinding the knees. Working on firing your glutes will make you a better rower, too, as glutes are the biggest strongest muscle in your body and in many of us with knee pain that muscle is inactive.

How many of you have done physical therapy? I think while diet, ice, injections, etc are helpful, I think they are icing on the cake; they will keep your cartilage healthy after you are moving the joint correctly. Good PT is what is going to get you moving right and may prevent or greatly delay many surgeries. However, you need to make sure you find a good up to date PT. The ones that really 'get it' can be hard to find. My advice for the best luck is find someone who mentions they use the SFMA (or an athletic trainer who uses FMS will be almost as good for less acute situations or complicated histories like knee surgeries). It's a system of mobility/strength tests and corrective exercises that has really great results and is in line with what I've said above. Some of the exercises listed here, squats/deadlifts/lunges, are good only if you do them right. If you do them with your knees tracking all wrong you're just reinforcing the grinding. That's where a talented PT or FMS trained personal trainer is invaluable. If they only give you things like inner quad strengthening, leg extension machine reps, etc, and not hip stuff then find another, they are not looking at the big picture or aren't up to date. Myself, I'm playing around with some mini-band exercises and the rowing machine that I might share later to help people work on this at home.

[Bob S.]

But what can be done when the cartilage is gone - other than injections of cortisone and/or hyaluronic acid - or knee replacement?

Bob S.

[truth1ness]

I'm not saying there isn't a point where surgery is necessary like when it completely locks up at a certain point, but if your knee is still moving there is at least some cartilage left. Working on mechanics like driving with the glutes is the best thing you can do to spare load on the remaining cartilage and maybe even give it a chance to recover a bit. Knee cap pain is easier to deal with and fortunately is the more common source of pain in those who haven't had previous surgery (like meniscus removal). But I think all types will at least benefit somewhat. I think the worst thing is to go into surgery or get injections before you've optimized your movement with PT training, because as soon as you start rowing you're going to start grinding away at the same exact spot. Do everything you can to solve the problem with PT/movement mechanics, then fix your diet, then go to medications/injections/surgery as the last resort.

[kayakr]

I've had good results with toe arthritis with a vegan diet (which dramatically improved inflammation within 1 week), better biomechanics (see book "pain free" and also good orthotics) and more strength focus on core/functional strength. These may apply to knee as well. YMMV.