SkiErg or Rower with suspected Sciatica / SI Joint issues

[Rossk08]

Hey folks,

Just looking for an honest opinion.

I'm keen on the SkiErg having used it in the gym on and off last year . At the moment the Docs are trying to figure out what the cause of the dull ache in my left glute and sore to touch left hip is . Its not excruciating but it is causing me hassle , walking flares it, sitting too long flares it, squatting upsets it...…. ffs its very sensitive . I've heard Sciatica mentioned, Si Joint mentioned ….. not really getting anywhere yet though.

Given my new working from home life with covid19 (told it will be next Jan earliest before we MIGHT come back) and the chances that gyms are going to be shut again soon I've decided to buy something cardio based for the home. SkiErg is great as it hits a lot , so too is a Concept Rower . I can avoid the impact of running on a treadmill / skipping .

Any of you have any particular recommendation gear wise, given what I've outlined above. I'm sure there's someone else with similar issues who might be able to chime in,

Thanks for any advice you can give,
Regards,
Ross

[nsgymd]

I underwent lumbar laminectomy for sciatica two years ago and now suffer from S-I joint pain. I have successfully returned to rowing on my C2 E with two modifications: (1) I avoid excessive lean back, (2) I wear an S-I joint belt. Together these changes have kept my back healthy through 500k meters and counting.

[Rossk08]

Thanks for the response,

The biggest issue for me is getting an actual diagnosis, the Irish system is absolutely rubbish.

GP said last week that he will send me for those injections done by xray, guided ones, to see if it will help.

I went to a physio and spent 600 over a time but she wasn't too sure what it was.....

Now it's at the point that a walk to the shop leaves me feeling strange to the left of my spine along the belt line, I can't close my top button in case it hurts.

Fingers crossed I'll get some answer soon.

I was thinking skierg would be more forgiving due to the dominant upper body involvement but who knows

[johnlvs2run]

I was having pain in my knee, then the side of my upper leg and gluts to the point where it was painful to sit and to stand in one place. One day I had to hold onto a cart while shopping, as otherwise the pain was too unbearable to stand up. At first the knee pain stopped me from running, then the leg and glut pain almost kept me from being able to walk and stand up.

I had tried almost off of the recommended exercise I could find but to no avail. Swimming aggravated my gluts and hamstrings when pushing off the wall. Cycling was okay but didn't result in a big improvement. The issue continued for a couple of years.

After I started using a Skierg two years ago, the pain went away quite quickly and hasn't bothered me since.
I would most definitely NOT go to doctors to look for a remedy, the danger being that they could seriously mess you up.

My feeling is that the issue was caused by muscle imbalances, which the Skierg motion helped to rebalance and get rid of the pain. I used to do a wood chopper exercise before running which would likely have been just as good, maybe better. I have since stopped using the Skierg and am using the Bikeerg every morning plus doing other exercises including the wood chopper motion.

[Rossk08]

Mad thing is that cycling really triggers it with me, running too.
Right now I'm sitting watching TV and I've a really annoying ache in my left glute, deep in.

I'm lucky I don't get pain in my leg or feet. I think that's one of the reasons the physio didn't think it was sciatica.

The skierg looks like the less irritating option, if I were to use a rower I would have to put a cushion on the seat as sitting on any hard surface sets of this pain, guaranteed.

I have a dicky shoulder and front raises upset it and upright rows and from looking at the range of motion with skierg is doesn't look like it would cause issues so I might just go with it.

My days of 42 kg dumbell shoulder presses and 240kg deadlifts are done, lost all interest in that madness. Nearly 40 now and would rather be fit and reasonably strong and not upset all my niggles

[jamesg]

I've lost 5cm height over the last 50 years due to crushed lumbar discs, as clearly shown on Xray screen. Causes all sorts of problems known as sciatica. The only remedies are keep fit and lose weight. So far so good.

Rowing being a smooth action is fine, and the vertical component of leg thrust reduces seat and spine loads. Kayak and freestyle work well too, thanks to the torsion.

Walking is a pain for the first mile but after that I warm up and can keep going for 2-3 hours. Steep hills are good for us. Sticks are essential, and help going down too, which can be hard work on steep rocky paths. If already fit from rowing it only takes a week to be able to do some useful work.

[flatbread]

I have a degenerative L5 (it's been that way since my mid-20s), and get some problems with pseudo-sciatica from overworking my pirifomis from time to time.

The rower is definitely the higher risk. Thanks to the video feedback from this forum, I've fixed my stroke -- particularly getting a good hip swing with a neutral spine, and using the lower abs to stabilize the trunk. Still, I have to be careful. I'll get a tight piriformis from all the hip extension.

Not to restart my crapfight with Henry about poling and the erg again, but if you don't close the hip angle too much, don't drive the handles too deep (hands at/above the knees), keep your weight on your forefoot (when the heels touch, your weight is midfoot, shifting to forefoot as you drive back up), and have a slight forward lean as you would on snow, you're emphasizing the anterior chain and keeping load off the lower back. The glutes should be taking more postural load than the lumbar muscles. Ski erg is definitely easier on my L5/S1.

Vid on joint angles and ranges of motion -- erg like this and your back will be happy.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XgWC53_kstA&t=45s

[mict450]

The rower is definitely the higher risk. Thanks to the video feedback from this forum, I've fixed my stroke -- particularly getting a good hip swing with a neutral spine, and using the lower abs to stabilize the trunk. Still, I have to be careful. I'll get a tight piriformis from all the hip extension.

..... if you don't close the hip angle too much, don't drive the handles too deep (hands at/above the knees), keep your weight on your forefoot (when the heels touch, your weight is midfoot, shifting to forefoot as you drive back up), and have a slight forward lean as you would on snow, you're emphasizing the anterior chain and keeping load off the lower back. The glutes should be taking more postural load than the lumbar muscles. Ski erg is definitely easier on my L5/S1.

Vid on joint angles and ranges of motion -- erg like this and your back will be happy.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XgWC53_kstA&t=45s

Definitely agree that the rower can have a greater negative impact on the body. I find it a very technically nuanced movement that takes a lot of drilling to maintain.

The Skierg, on the other hand, has a simpler movement with less to go wrong. For better or worse, the longer crossfit style is here to stay. I've been incorporating this style into my training for variety & find I can go faster than the shorter on snow XC skiing style. But when all is said & done, the shorter stroke is used for the majority of my training.

[flatbread]

Definitely agree that the rower can have a greater negative impact on the body. I find it a very technically nuanced movement that takes a lot of drilling to maintain.

The Skierg, on the other hand, has a simpler movement with less to go wrong. For better or worse, the longer crossfit style is here to stay. I've been incorporating this style into my training for variety & find I can go faster than the shorter on snow XC skiing style. But when all is said & done, the shorter stroke is used for the majority of my training.

Just spitballing here.

The PM5 measures work done at the flywheel. There is no measurement of what force gets directed into the foot plate. Here's someone's Master's Thesis or undergrad research project -- put strain gauges on the foot plate, and have some subjects use both the more "crossfit" style and the "skiing" style, measure total force production at both the flywheel and foot plate, and take heat measurements to get calories expended and gross mechanical efficiency.

I suspect that the total energy expenditure for both techniques would even out at given percentages of VO2 max for all subjects, although the lower PM5 score technique would yield a lower GME.

As Gaylord Perry once said of different methods of Spring Training conditioning, "it's all just getting tired."

[Ombrax]

The PM5 measures work done at the flywheel. There is no measurement of what force gets directed into the foot plate.

Actually, since the footplates are there to react the force at the handle, for the important longitudinal forces what's happening at the handle (and therefore the flywheel) matches what happens at the footplates. Obviously nothing in that direction is taken out at the seat (except for very small frictional loads) so I bet you that the total work done on the footplate is very, very small compared to the work done at the flywheel.

[mict450]

Hey folks,

Just looking for an honest opinion.

I'm keen on the SkiErg having used it in the gym on and off last year . At the moment the Docs are trying to figure out what the cause of the dull ache in my left glute and sore to touch left hip is . Its not excruciating but it is causing me hassle , walking flares it, sitting too long flares it, squatting upsets it...…. ffs its very sensitive . I've heard Sciatica mentioned, Si Joint mentioned ….. not really getting anywhere yet though.

Given my new working from home life with covid19 (told it will be next Jan earliest before we MIGHT come back) and the chances that gyms are going to be shut again soon I've decided to buy something cardio based for the home. SkiErg is great as it hits a lot , so too is a Concept Rower . I can avoid the impact of running on a treadmill / skipping .

Any of you have any particular recommendation gear wise, given what I've outlined above. I'm sure there's someone else with similar issues who might be able to chime in,

Thanks for any advice you can give,
Regards,
Ross

Ross, sorry! We've kinda gotten off track a bit, for which I am partially responsible. I have rower & poling machine (an Ercolina, similar motion to the Skierg). In my experience, the Skierg, hands down, has been gentler on my back. No question!!

If still in doubt, use some stretch bands, anchored to the top of a doorway, & mimic the poling motion & try for yourself. The bands will be harder on you than the skierg because you will have to control the eccentric return to the top, whereas the skierg motion is a true recovery sequence aided by the bungee cord.

Hope this helps you make your decision.

[flatbread]

agreed -- the stretch cords will be a little harder on your L5/S1 than the Skierg -- use a green one, or even a yellow one, something that will give you maybe 40-50 reps to failure. it will be loose at the top, but you'll still get a feel for the motion.

the ski erg is easier on my back then anything else -- much easier on it than the rower, and less than either getting out on the bike or riding on the trainer.