Cross-Training for Fitness rather than Performance

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ultradianguy
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Cross-Training for Fitness rather than Performance

Post by ultradianguy » March 20th, 2022, 7:34 pm

Hi - I've been asking this question mostly in cycling forums but I figured I'd get some input here. I'd like to develop a good training plan that incorporates multiple sports. However, I don't really have a primary focus with everything else as secondary. I suppose cycling would be the primary if I had to pick one - but I practice martial arts, do a bit of running on the treadmill (not outdoors), indoor rowing on C2, kayak and hike in the summer, snowshoe and cross-country ski in the winter.

I'm 64 so also more conscious of maintaining my fitness as I get older. I've never felt any limitations and would like to keep it that way as long as possible. I'm not interested in competition. The only "goal" other than Fitness would perhaps be increasing my endurance for longer bike rides.

That said, anyone have any thoughts, strategies, resources, links for good approaches to integrating multiple modalities into a training plan?

Thanks,
Michael

jamesg
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Re: Cross-Training for Fitness rather than Performance

Post by jamesg » March 22nd, 2022, 5:12 am

Rowing can provide a satisfactory mix of strength and endurance if we pull a long hard stroke. A coach or equivalent knowledge of the basic rowing style that engages the legs will be needed, since training plans do not teach us to row.

https://www.britishrowing.org/indoor-ro ... ing-plans/
08-1940, 183cm, 84kg. Last seen MHR 158 in 2k = 220 - 77% of age.
2021-2: stroke 6 W-min. ½k 1:55.5; 1k 4:09.2; 2k 8:42.2; 5k 23:15; 30' 6247; 10k 49:36.

Dangerscouse
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Re: Cross-Training for Fitness rather than Performance

Post by Dangerscouse » March 22nd, 2022, 12:31 pm

I'm sure that doing long steady erging will be very beneficial for your cycling endurance.

In terms of mixing modalities, I guess it's all about choosing the right intensities for each facet and ensuring you're recovering properly. I'd also recommend doing some sort of pilates and/or yoga if you don't already, as this is ideal for stretching and to some extent, strength.
48 HWT; 6' 4"; 1k= 3:09; 2k= 6:36; 5k= 17:19; 6k= 20:47; 10k= 35:46 30mins= 8,488m 60mins= 16,618m HM= 1:16.47; FM= 2:40:41; 50k= 3:16:09; 100k= 7:52:44; 12hrs = 153km

"You reap what you row"

Instagram: stuwenman

ultradianguy
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Re: Cross-Training for Fitness rather than Performance

Post by ultradianguy » March 22nd, 2022, 2:40 pm

HI - Thanks both - appreciate the comments. However, I wasn't asking if rowing would be helpful and of course good technique is important for everything. I'm already doing all these things and have been for many years. (As for Yoga etc, I find that kung fu and tai chi cover the whole body aspects pretty well).

I was looking for suggestions or resources about the best way to put it all together in an integrated plan.

Best,
Michael

Dangerscouse
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Re: Cross-Training for Fitness rather than Performance

Post by Dangerscouse » March 22nd, 2022, 2:42 pm

ultradianguy wrote:
March 22nd, 2022, 2:40 pm
I was looking for suggestions or resources about the best way to put it all together in an integrated plan.

Best,
Michael
Sorry Michael, I haven't got a clue about that. I totally missed the point of your question.
48 HWT; 6' 4"; 1k= 3:09; 2k= 6:36; 5k= 17:19; 6k= 20:47; 10k= 35:46 30mins= 8,488m 60mins= 16,618m HM= 1:16.47; FM= 2:40:41; 50k= 3:16:09; 100k= 7:52:44; 12hrs = 153km

"You reap what you row"

Instagram: stuwenman

ultradianguy
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Re: Cross-Training for Fitness rather than Performance

Post by ultradianguy » March 22nd, 2022, 5:01 pm

Thanks, no worries. It seems that no one approaches training plans for general fitness this way - which may be telling me something... (like, you're over thinking this?).
:)

Dangerscouse
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Re: Cross-Training for Fitness rather than Performance

Post by Dangerscouse » March 22nd, 2022, 5:17 pm

Possibly. I'd try and do what feels right and regularly analyse and assess what's working and what isn't. I'm fairly sure that you will have a good handle on your intuition and that's usually a good guide.
48 HWT; 6' 4"; 1k= 3:09; 2k= 6:36; 5k= 17:19; 6k= 20:47; 10k= 35:46 30mins= 8,488m 60mins= 16,618m HM= 1:16.47; FM= 2:40:41; 50k= 3:16:09; 100k= 7:52:44; 12hrs = 153km

"You reap what you row"

Instagram: stuwenman

Tsnor
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Re: Cross-Training for Fitness rather than Performance

Post by Tsnor » March 28th, 2022, 12:00 pm

Lots of research showing that
(1) endurance sports work the same (cycling, rowing, running, swimming, nordics, etc)
(2) training patterns for one endurance sport work for others, and you can crosstrain.
(3) REST and RECOVERY are critical for endurance sports.

Not as much research avail for sprint type workloads (e.g. 100m row, lifting). It's generally agreed not to work same muscles hard two days in a row.

If you are working out 1 to 3 days a week you can do whatever you want. Warm up for 10 mins to reduce chance of injury and have at it.

If you are doing 5 or 6 workouts/week (or more if you do 2 sessions/day):
(1) Choose one day a week (or more) that is total rest. Nothing more than walking.
(2) Choose 2-3 days/week MAX (1 minimum) where your heartrate gets above 75% of your max HR. Do as many of your sports as you want on those days. Work as hard as you want. Enjoy, these are fun workouts that build VO2 max and muscle strength. Never do two of these hard days back to back, always insert a rest day or a long/slow day. You should be doing strength conditioning, do it on these days. Don't alternate hard workout days in your sports with lifting days it doesn't work.
(3) On the rest of the days do long/slow workouts where you keep max heartrate in the 65-75% range, target 70%. Keep these sessions long. Do not insert "short hard sections" into these workouts. These workouts build capillaries, mitochondria, etc. and give you long term conditioning.

Here is a cycling example of weekly schedule building. You'll need to insert your own chosen sports for some of the cycling workouts: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Wk0f-Bsw3E (skip the first 2 mins, and see how he changes the workout pattern over time "periodization").

Workouts trigger adaptation. It's the adaption that makes you stronger. Too many hard workouts in a row is pulling the trigger a lot, but the body can't adapt and gets discouraged - called "overreach", "non-functional overreach" and "overtraining". This is only an issue if you are working out a lot. Google and learn the symptoms, doing too much is not good.

Here's one reference, post if you want more. https://www.researchgate.net/publicatio ... e_Athletes here's the Ted talk version: https://www.ted.com/talks/stephen_seile ... e_athletes

ultradianguy
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Re: Cross-Training for Fitness rather than Performance

Post by ultradianguy » March 28th, 2022, 1:12 pm

Tsnor wrote:
March 28th, 2022, 12:00 pm
Lots of research showing that
(1) endurance sports work the same (cycling, rowing, running, swimming, nordics, etc)
(2) training patterns for one endurance sport work for others, and you can crosstrain.
(3) REST and RECOVERY are critical for endurance sports.

@TSNOR- Thank you ! That is the kind of advice I was looking for. Really helpful.

Michael

Mike Caviston
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Re: Cross-Training for Fitness rather than Performance

Post by Mike Caviston » March 29th, 2022, 12:36 pm

ultradianguy wrote:
March 20th, 2022, 7:34 pm
That said, anyone have any thoughts, strategies, resources, links for good approaches to integrating multiple modalities into a training plan?
I’m a couple years younger than you and do a lot of the cross-training modalities you do. Rowing, running, cycling, and stairclimbing are staples; kayaking and snowshoeing when opportunity arises. I am interested in competition and high performance, but general fitness is important. I have a simple training model that lets me plug different modalities into different workouts depending on what is available, what I feel like doing, and what competitions are on the horizon. The proportion of time and energy devoted to each core discipline is fairly even over time but can vary significantly from one week to the next. My weekly routine includes one or two interval sessions plus 10-12 hours of LSD in chunks of 20-90 minutes. I find it very easy to find the right intensity based on experience with pace, RPE, and breathing response. I never use heart rate to guide training.

dabatey
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Re: Cross-Training for Fitness rather than Performance

Post by dabatey » March 31st, 2022, 5:18 pm

Mike Caviston wrote:
March 29th, 2022, 12:36 pm
ultradianguy wrote:
March 20th, 2022, 7:34 pm
That said, anyone have any thoughts, strategies, resources, links for good approaches to integrating multiple modalities into a training plan?
I’m a couple years younger than you and do a lot of the cross-training modalities you do. Rowing, running, cycling, and stairclimbing are staples; kayaking and snowshoeing when opportunity arises. I am interested in competition and high performance, but general fitness is important. I have a simple training model that lets me plug different modalities into different workouts depending on what is available, what I feel like doing, and what competitions are on the horizon. The proportion of time and energy devoted to each core discipline is fairly even over time but can vary significantly from one week to the next. My weekly routine includes one or two interval sessions plus 10-12 hours of LSD in chunks of 20-90 minutes. I find it very easy to find the right intensity based on experience with pace, RPE, and breathing response. I never use heart rate to guide training.
Mike, I am currently following your Wolverine Plan, and have just 2 days ago bought a road cycle in order to 'get out and about' during UK summer weather. Plan is to mix C2/Cycling till the weather turns (October-ish) and then back on to Wolverine again. Wonder if you would be kind enough to offer your thoughts on the best elements of Wolverine to keep for a couple days C2 per week? My thoughts were L1/L2 alternate one day, and L4 on another. I thought to keep intervals C2 rather than cycling as there are no variables to affect the results.
Age 50....Weight 62 Kg....
Started rowing 27 Aug 21
2K 8.33 (19 Sep 21)...8.02.3(23 Oct 21)...7.57.8(13 Nov 21)...7.55.4(7 Dec 21)...7.37.0(15 Mar 22)
5K 22.14 (2 Oct 21)
Resting HR 48....Max HR (Seen) 182

Mike Caviston
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Re: Cross-Training for Fitness rather than Performance

Post by Mike Caviston » March 31st, 2022, 11:42 pm

dabatey wrote:
March 31st, 2022, 5:18 pm
Wonder if you would be kind enough to offer your thoughts on the best elements of Wolverine to keep for a couple days C2 per week? My thoughts were L1/L2 alternate one day, and L4 on another. I thought to keep intervals C2 rather than cycling as there are no variables to affect the results.
Your plan seems about right, especially if you intend to eventually improve your 2K time (as opposed to just developing general fitness). Keeping in touch with L4 on the erg is desirable since that format doesn’t translate easily to other modalities. Doing L1 or L2 on the erg is an efficient way to maintain some rowing-specific fitness without spending too much time on the erg, and you are right about minimizing the variability. For general cross-training, when deciding what modality to use for a specific type of workout, I almost always do short interval (Level 1) type workouts on the erg since that is the modality where I can generate the greatest intensity. My running or cycling abilities just don’t do justice to that format any more (though I can still run mile repeats fast enough to do a decent L2-type workout). An accomplished cyclist might get as good or better training on the bike vs. the rowing erg.

dabatey
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Re: Cross-Training for Fitness rather than Performance

Post by dabatey » April 1st, 2022, 3:25 am

Mike Caviston wrote:
March 31st, 2022, 11:42 pm
dabatey wrote:
March 31st, 2022, 5:18 pm
Wonder if you would be kind enough to offer your thoughts on the best elements of Wolverine to keep for a couple days C2 per week? My thoughts were L1/L2 alternate one day, and L4 on another. I thought to keep intervals C2 rather than cycling as there are no variables to affect the results.
Your plan seems about right, especially if you intend to eventually improve your 2K time (as opposed to just developing general fitness). Keeping in touch with L4 on the erg is desirable since that format doesn’t translate easily to other modalities. Doing L1 or L2 on the erg is an efficient way to maintain some rowing-specific fitness without spending too much time on the erg, and you are right about minimizing the variability. For general cross-training, when deciding what modality to use for a specific type of workout, I almost always do short interval (Level 1) type workouts on the erg since that is the modality where I can generate the greatest intensity. My running or cycling abilities just don’t do justice to that format any more (though I can still run mile repeats fast enough to do a decent L2-type workout). An accomplished cyclist might get as good or better training on the bike vs. the rowing erg.
Yes the plan is to try and bring the 2K time down, really as an indicator of general fitness though as at 136lb and 50yr old I have no intention of setting the world on fire on an erg. I imagine I will have a good time of my legs adapting to cycling so thought best to keep intervals on the erg because of that(plus the variability). Interestingly, I am reading Graham Obree's book 'The Obree way', and he seems to share your dismissing of a heart rate monitor for training saying his only use for them was/is to stop him going too hard during a recovery ride. My original plan was to throw in some running, but my knee only allows me 10/15 minutes of that before then hurting bad (something to do with side to side motion I think so erg/cycle is ok) hence the purchase of the bike.

Many thanks for your answer.
Age 50....Weight 62 Kg....
Started rowing 27 Aug 21
2K 8.33 (19 Sep 21)...8.02.3(23 Oct 21)...7.57.8(13 Nov 21)...7.55.4(7 Dec 21)...7.37.0(15 Mar 22)
5K 22.14 (2 Oct 21)
Resting HR 48....Max HR (Seen) 182

ultradianguy
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Re: Cross-Training for Fitness rather than Performance

Post by ultradianguy » April 5th, 2022, 4:08 pm

Mike Caviston wrote:
March 29th, 2022, 12:36 pm
ultradianguy wrote:
March 20th, 2022, 7:34 pm
That said, anyone have any thoughts, strategies, resources, links for good approaches to integrating multiple modalities into a training plan?
I’m a couple years younger than you and do a lot of the cross-training modalities you do. Rowing, running, cycling, and stairclimbing are staples; kayaking and snowshoeing when opportunity arises. I am interested in competition and high performance, but general fitness is important. I have a simple training model that lets me plug different modalities into different workouts depending on what is available, what I feel like doing, and what competitions are on the horizon. The proportion of time and energy devoted to each core discipline is fairly even over time but can vary significantly from one week to the next. My weekly routine includes one or two interval sessions plus 10-12 hours of LSD in chunks of 20-90 minutes. I find it very easy to find the right intensity based on experience with pace, RPE, and breathing response. I never use heart rate to guide training.
Thanks Mike. Sounds like you have something online - I'll check it out.

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