Concept2 Forum

I have been reading this forum for a bit now and I have found much that is useful and entertaining here. However, I often tire of thinking in terms of contemporary science and mathematics when trying to understand the world or a part of it. Thus, I have started this thread in hopes of having a discussion about what makes a good rower besides things like heart rate, stroke volume, SPI, chosen training plan, etc. These may be helpful devices for describing what a good rower does for his/her training but miss the mark as to what a good rower is.

To begin, I would like to offer just one virtue of a good rower.

A good rower has integrity. There are various ways to understand integrity but in this instance I focus on the truthful aspect. Having integrity means telling the truth both to oneself and others, even when we know that they cannot verify our claims. If we continue to lie to ourselves about our knowledge and abilities, I feel we must become worse rowers rather than better. Integrity means getting back on the erg each day with an honest opinion of one's abilities and where to go from here. Integrity means adding helpful information to the discussions without continually reverting to claims about self-worth, preferring rather that we all become better rowers rather than just one of us.

I hope others will find this type of discussion helpful, worthy, and entertaining and look forward to the responses it generates. I understand the possibility of hijack is imminent, however, I think if we keep focused on my original purpose, we can still have a good conversation.

Best Wishes,
Eliot

An interesting question Eliot.

I have no experience of OTW but almost 4 years experience of erging. I would consider myself to be much improved rather than good but I am undoubtedly obsessed.

So for me a good rower has to be obsessive. How else could you describe somebody that walks 20 minutes to the gym and back at 6:00am every morning come rain snow or ice, works himself into a state of total exhaustion for 40-60 minutes, takes carful note of all the numbers for later analysis for the sole purpose of improving his 2K time by just a few seconds per year to finish absolutely nowhere in his age weight division when racing.

I think most keen ergers must have a degree of obsession/compulsion/fanaticism in their character to keep going long after the initial comfortable improvements have ceased.

KevJGK wrote:An interesting question Eliot.

I have no experience of OTW but almost 4 years experience of erging. I would consider myself to be much improved rather than good but I am undoubtedly obsessed.

So for me a good rower has to be obsessive. How else could you describe somebody that walks 20 minutes to the gym and back at 6:00am every morning come rain snow or ice, works himself into a state of total exhaustion for 40-60 minutes, takes carful note of all the numbers for later analysis for the sole purpose of improving his 2K time by just a few seconds per year to finish absolutely nowhere in his age weight division when racing.

I think most keen ergers must have a degree of obsession/compulsion/fanaticism in their character to keep going long after the initial comfortable improvements have ceased.

The activities you are calling obsessive, Kevin, are just good training habits.

Congratulations on developing these habits.

Keep them up.

In a sport like rowing, they will get you everywhere.

The body is habitual.

It loves regularity--doing the same thing, over and over, with no surprises.

In this, it is the exactly opposite of the mind, which hates repetition and thrives on new experience.

ranger

eliotsmith wrote:I have been reading this forum for a bit now and I have found much that is useful and entertaining here. However, I often tire of thinking in terms of contemporary science and mathematics when trying to understand the world or a part of it. Thus, I have started this thread in hopes of having a discussion about what makes a good rower besides things like heart rate, stroke volume, SPI, chosen training plan, etc. These may be helpful devices for describing what a good rower does for his/her training but miss the mark as to what a good rower is.

To begin, I would like to offer just one virtue of a good rower.

A good rower has integrity. There are various ways to understand integrity but in this instance I focus on the truthful aspect. Having integrity means telling the truth both to oneself and others, even when we know that they cannot verify our claims. If we continue to lie to ourselves about our knowledge and abilities, I feel we must become worse rowers rather than better. Integrity means getting back on the erg each day with an honest opinion of one's abilities and where to go from here. Integrity means adding helpful information to the discussions without continually reverting to claims about self-worth, preferring rather that we all become better rowers rather than just one of us.

I hope others will find this type of discussion helpful, worthy, and entertaining and look forward to the responses it generates. I understand the possibility of hijack is imminent, however, I think if we keep focused on my original purpose, we can still have a good conversation.

Best Wishes,
Eliot

Rowing has nothing to do with talking.

So why even bring it up, especially in a discussion of rowing virtues?

The virtues of rowers are not the same as the virtues of talkers, much less the virtues of internet posters, who are often infamous liars.

It is impossible to avoid honesty when you erg.

The erg is a truth machine.

If you're slow, you're slow.

If you're fast, you're fast.

No discussion needed.

Just back to work.

Perhaps you will be better (or worse!) tomorrow.

ranger

eliotsmith wrote: ...A good rower has integrity...

...If we continue to lie to ourselves about our knowledge and abilities, I feel we must become worse rowers rather than better...

I see integrity as something which involves a lot more than being related to a rower's inner voices. It has an ethical connotation and also involves how we act towards others. I don't believe this type of karma has a lot to with rowing and would only improve rowing performance indirectly and depending on circumstances.

I also doubt if it would be bad if rowers would lie to themselves about their performance. It might also be seen as something like dreaming. This can be a good thing if these (too) high goals are turned into ambition and cause someone to be or remain active.

And now I would like to draw from scientific literature about internal and external motivation

A man without a dream
Is like a truck with no gasoline.

ranger

KevJGK wrote:I think most keen ergers must have a degree of obsession/compulsion/fanaticism in their character to keep going long after the initial comfortable improvements have ceased.

Agreed. I think they also have a "can do" attitude -- if you don't believe you can do it, it is unlikely you will endure the pain to prove otherwise.

I agree that to "be a good rower" means more than your 2k time and technical proficiency (or lack thereof).

To your list, I would add that one should add value to the rowing community in some (great or small) way. Not talking about altruism mind you, just that in the process of pursuing ones own self interest, that the net impact on the broader community should be positive.

Tinus wrote:I also doubt if it would be bad if rowers would lie to themselves about their performance.

One of the best ways I have found to get thru a hard piece, is to focus ONLY on the next 'X' portion.. Define 'X' however you want.
I convince myself that the only thing I have to do, is get thru the next 'X' section... kind of a self deception, but it works.

chgoss wrote:To your list, I would add that one should add value to the rowing community in some (great or small) way. Not talking about altruism mind you, just that in the process of pursuing ones own self interest, that the net impact on the broader community should be positive.

This is interesting because it says nothing about the rowing process itself and yet, I believe, it is important to what it means to be a good rower. Stepping aside from ourselves once in a while to try to see this "self" as part of a community is something all "forums", both public and virtual, could benefit from.

However, I admit, it may be one of the most difficult things for me to do!

KevJGK wrote:How else could you describe somebody that walks 20 minutes to the gym and back at 6:00am every morning come rain snow or ice, works himself into a state of total exhaustion for 40-60 minutes, takes carful note of all the numbers for later analysis for the sole purpose of improving his 2K time by just a few seconds per year to finish absolutely nowhere in his age weight division when racing.

I agree wholeheartedly. And yet there must be some limit to this obsession, especially when trying to maintain relationships! My wife wishes that my obsession created less of a stink in our house.

The obsession is in itself a love of the sport. It makes the rower feel so good about his/herself.

And chgoss, I do the same. For long pieces, I just think "get me to the last 20 minutes and it's so easy from there", or "get me to the hour mark and it'll be easy". When I do sprint pieces, I calculate percentages in my head and that seems to help. And on intervals it definitely works to have yourself focus the most on the middle 2-3 intervals then it's downhill.

As for community contribution, the rowing community would be nowhere without the thousands of rowers and friends and family that help out. We don't have the money that football and basketball have, so it really does require extra effort on our part.

I have started this thread in hopes of having a discussion about what makes a good rower besides things like heart rate, stroke volume, SPI, chosen training plan, etc. These may be helpful devices for describing what a good rower does for his/her training but miss the mark as to what a good rower is.

When discussing the attribute of a good rower beyond performance attributes it may be good to decide on whether there is a need to include aptitude for teamwork.

Ergers do not necessarily need this attribute. Team boat rowers do.

As an OTW coach, I've often witness situations where the individual believes that he/she can either take up the slack fore the rest of their crew or merely ignore the capabilities of others in the boat.
Such a rower is not a good rower for that boat. As an individual they may well be "a good rower".

In order to demonsrtate teamwork skills:

The good rower (disregarding speed) is one who is both honestly self-aware and also one who can assess his own skills as they measure in relation to those of others so that, together, they can attempt to adapt accordingly to make a boat go as wished.

To excell on erg does not require team work... (teamwork) goodness breaks down very easily, IMHO. There is a lot of room for the prima dona and sociopath in the sport of erging even if such an individual were to remain constantly silent. Would someone like that be a "good" erger?

Could anyone ever tell whether the (forever) silent sociopathic & non self aware erger was "good" or not? What would you look at? We've excluded everything else from discussion in this topic.

What about the erger who never improves by any metric but keeps at it... for decades...? Is in our new sense "good"? An energizer bunny type...he just keeps going and going and going...
I personally do not call that "good" yet somehow feel that I'm being unfair.

...this is fun... maybe someone would like to explore having a sense of joy while rowing in another post.

In the end: "goodness" can often be arbitrary according to custom.

badocter wrote:

KevJGK wrote:I think most keen ergers must have a degree of obsession/compulsion/fanaticism in their character to keep going long after the initial comfortable improvements have ceased.

Agreed. I think they also have a "can do" attitude -- if you don't believe you can do it, it is unlikely you will endure the pain to prove otherwise.

I have a completely opposite philosophy. I expect the worst. That way, not only am I never disappointed, but I am pleasantly surprised once in a while.

Bob S.

mikvan52 wrote:
What about the erger who never improves by any metric but keeps at it... for decades...? Is in our new sense "good"? An energizer bunny type...he just keeps going and going and going...
I personally do not call that "good" yet somehow feel that I'm being unfair.

Well, I certainly think you are, but we have gone a few rounds on this before. At my age, the only metric that improves, if that is the right word for it, is the number of years that I have been around. Anything else is strictly down hill.

Bob S.