Concept2 Forum

Good afternoon to all,

My name is Papy, I am new to this forum and new to rowing and would welcome some help on a couple of points please.

My background : 41 yo male, 110kg, 1m88. Quite inactive & unfit for the last few years (had done a fair bit of cycling before that but had to stop due to hips and knee pains), only had one or two walks a week, so fat belly ensued and also blood pressure under treatment in the last year (approx 150/90+ at the time of the treatment start). 3 Months back or so, BP checks were still not all that good and GP gave me a stern warning that I should do something about my health or she would have to add a lifetime additional BP treatment. Decided then to join my local gym to do something about it and the instructor advised me to give the erg a go. That was 2 months ago.

As i have read in other threads, unfortunately, the gym instructor at the induction advised me to use a damper at 8-10 and basically go hell for leather best I could. I obviously was in no state for that and took it very steady to start with and quite rapidly decided to have a good look at the concept 2 website and other sources of info to find out the best way to use this torture machine.

To cut this story short, I wanted to run past you where I am at now :

Objectives : primarily, fat loss and BP reduction, then develop muscles (pretty weak arms, legs ok) and general fitness.

Rowing technique : after some tweaking and learning over many videos viewings, I have reached a comfortable rowing movement. Taking the foot rests right down did wonders against an earlier mistake of lifting the handle over the knees and back down in the recovery.the chain now remains straight in the recovery. I am making that conscious effort to keep as well to that advised 2:1 ratio between recovery and drive time, with keeping relaxed shoulders. This definitely allows me to row longer and more smoothly now.

Work-outs : I now go on the erg 5 times a week. I started the log about 2.5 weeks ago and I am at 106km so far. There are only two Ergs in our gym and the etiquette wants that you can only use the equipment for stints of 20-30 minutes tops if the gym is crowded. On a busy day, I have therefore to restrict to a 30 minutes stint (so far, PB is 6,817m).

On a quiet day however, based on the info read here and in other places, I sort of settled for this sustainable work out :
*1km warm up / damper 5 / damper factor around 115-117 / 18-19spm for 5 minutes.
*10km / damper 6 / damper factor 125-130 approx., usually steady 20-22 spm throughout, then try to keep a faster constant sprint in the last 700m or so (spikes at 28 spm).
I try to gradually work on the intensity throughout and make some negative splits. For instance, this morning, the splits were : 2.15.8 /2.14.2 / 2.14.1 / 2.12.8 / 2.05.2
*then a few minutes rest followed by a 2km wind down in 9.30-10 minutes back on damper 5.
* then usually 20 to 30 minutes of various weights works (abdominal crunches, leg presses, pectorals and triceps - the latter 2 I understood are relatively unused on the erg, correct?).

On the heart rate front, based on the info on the concept 2 website, my aerobic range is 122 to 151 and anaerobic is 156-162. My average on the 10km is around 135 (not the talkative kind then but not out of sorts and out of breath either), with a spike at 160 on the final sprint.

2 of those workouts a week and 3 of the 30-minute workouts means I plan on roughly clocking on average 45km per week from now on.

How does that workout sound based on my objectives please ? I have started to see quite pleasing results so far (some visible reduction in fat belly, much less out of breath going up and down stairs at work, BP down in the 130's/80's, even some readings in the 120's/70's some days, no pain at all in back/knees/hips while/after using the erg, so really chuffed on that point). The weight loss has only been around 2-3 kilos since the gym induction itself 2 months ago so i am working on the calorie intake aspect as well (quite a sweet tooth, so that is still the sore point !). Is there anything I can tweak on the workouts to be more efficient please ?

Finally, two technical questions please :

1) I am struggling with the leg push at the start of the drive. i have found a steady flow in the drive so far but if I push harder on the legs, i have a tendency to jerk back too quickly and it creates a break in the flow before I pull on the arms to the finish. Would you have any tips/practice exercise for that leg work ?
2) are you meant to make a pause (even a slight one) at the finish before going back in the recovery or should it be fully continuous ? I have found this slight "pause" to help me in the 2:1 ratio and make sure i don't make too fast a recovery.

Sorry for the long write up but thought I'd be as thorough as possible. Thanks for your help.

All in all your program looks very good to me, Papy. Your initial condition as well as your goal call for plenty meters at moderate pace. That´s what you are doing and that´s what is advised. Negative splitting and HR- report look good. If you can put in additional ks that would work for the fat loss goal.
With regards to calories/food intake I would advise not a cut down (since you need plenty while rowing) but to look after quality. Bananas, fruit, cereals, pasta even steaks etc. instead of cakes, sweets, burgers and mayonaise-rich sandwiches.
As to technique my answer to (1) is to keep arms long during the leg drive (also better for elbows/lower arm muscels and tendons) and start the arms stroke only after finishing the leg drive. Regarding (2) I do all slow rate work (that´s 20 or 18 SPM for me) with a short break at the finish (rather than at the catch). Slow rate work helps to improve technique and to average stronger strokes because recovery phase is longer than on higher SPM.
Regarding drag / drag factor it is recommended to do all long range work at relative low drags. I myself only push it up for the sprint work. I would not do those sprints before substantial aerobic base as well as musular and tendon base are established. Good luck and welcome to this world.

Impressive first post! You have got to be the most well informed newbie that I have seen join this forum. Damn good job on your home work!
Your drag factors (DF) are fine for the training that you are doing, but the damper settings are high. No reflection on you. What it means is that the machines are dirty and the cages need to be cleaned out - unless you are at a very high altitude. Actually it doesn't really matter at this point, since you can get in the right DF range, but it is well that you check that DF each time in case it gets worse.

Re a pause at the finish: It is not recommended, but, of course, you need to change directions. What some coaches suggest is a slight downward curl of the handle at the finish and the reverse at the catch. It is a hangover from rowing in a boat where the oars have to clear the water at the finish and reenter it at the catch. However, it helps on the erg as well to make it a continuous motion of the handle as you reverse its direction of motion. You hands have to move out fairly fast in order to clear your knees before they start to come up. The rest of the recovery is the slow part, sneaking up on the catch.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AOPQbP8hFmY

Re weight loss: 2-3 kilos in a couple of months isn't all that bad. It is going to take time, and, yes, watching your diet is a key factor - more important than the exercise.

I am puzzled about your question about leg drive. A problem involving a jerking motion is usually something involving arm pull, but obviously you meant something earlier. Some people recommend a drill (forget the name of it) that consists of a few strokes of arms only, then adding the backswing for a few more, and finally adding in leg drive in sections (quarter, half, full). I am not sure that this would help your particular problem. I would prefer a drill with the reverse order, legs only at first, add in backswing, and finally bring in the arms, but I have never heard of anyone else suggesting that.

Bob S.

Bob S. wrote:I would prefer a drill with the reverse order, legs only at first, add in backswing, and finally bring in the arms, but I have never heard of anyone else suggesting that.

Bob S.

Hi Bob! It's been a while, but when I saw this I just had to chime in. Xeno used to have us do this. It was very helpful for understanding when the next section of the stroke should come in to make the entire stroke flow, as you can feel the stroke "drop out" when you don't include the next bit. You want to start the next section (when you add it in the drill) just at the point needed to avoid the "drop out" feeling.

HTH,

Lisa

Your paces for 2k split on the 10k are to to be commended. You increase pace in commanding fashion and push hard on the final 2k which makes it apparent that you know what work is and are fully engaged in producing some! I agree with Bob that it might be preferable not to make the pause at finish a habit. However I have felt the temptation of the pause at rates from 16-18spm. If you're not jumping into competitive crew or sculling this week, I think we can look over that.

I'm at a loss to envision your description of a very hard leg drive associated with a "break in flow" before arm pull. The sequence on drive is legs, back, arms. You don't say much about a forward lean at catch or a layback at finish. I have an idea that you may not have the ability to compress your abdomen against your thighs at catch (the fwd lean). I hope you have the glute and core strength to lean back from the vertical during drive thus connecting the legs push to the arms to chest finish? I hope you're not flattening your legs without transferring the momentum to your core and extended arms before bringing in the arm finish--referred to in the biz as "butt shooting" or "shooting the slide." You say you're shifting iron for improved arm strength. I'm wondering if maybe you've got a good deal of arm strength and are relying on it for a large percentage of your output?

Only a guess and could be totally out of bounds as slide shooters don't usually produce low stroke rates. Several forum members are accustomed to critiquing form problems from a short video of the erging stroke submitted on u-tube or other video hosting site and linked here. A similar service for fee is available from Concept 2. Might clear up difficulties of verbal description and interpretation. With regard to your weights workouts, don't neglect pecs, tris, shoulders because they don't contribute directly to the erg stroke. Same for hamstrings and abs. All the opposing sets of extensors and flexors need to be worked. Leg curls, presses, tri curls, dumbell flies or pushups maintain condition in muscle not heavily involved in erging. Jack

jackarabit wrote:With regard to your weights workouts, don't neglect pecs, tris, shoulders because they don't contribute directly to the erg stroke. Same for hamstrings and abs. All the opposing sets of extensors and flexors need to be worked. Leg curls, presses, tri curls, dumbell flies or pushups maintain condition in muscle not heavily involved in erging. Jack

Hey man! The OP touched on that, specifically mentioning pectorals and triceps. But yes, the other points you brought up were worth adding.

Bob S.

? of emPHASis, Bob. I was concerned that Papy might think the compensating exercises were wasted. Clearly you are correct that I was admonishing him to be aware of what he already knows. I shan't worry then shall I? Jack

Good morning,
Thank you all for the welcome and feedback, much appreciated. I'll have a proper look to all the responses tonight and revert on the various points.

Yesterday's session did validate the lower drag factor / lower damper recommendations though. Did a 30 minutes stint this time only on damper 5 with higher intensity strokes and smashed my distance PB from 6,817m to 7,223m.
2.04 split AVG
20-21 spm all the way through
5 Min splits : 2.15 for warm up then 2.03 - 2.03 - 2.03 - 2.02 - 2.02.
Hard work, had to focus the mind on five minute batches at a time because it got quite tough around the 12-15 minutes mark. Really happy with the splits consistency though. Was definitely not in a state to make a sprint towards the end !!

Other good news of the day : I have received my Ergo pad from Concept 2 this morning, that will definitely help with the comfort on the long range work.

More later.

Papy wrote: Yesterday's session did validate the lower drag factor / lower damper recommendations though. Did a 30 minutes stint this time only on damper 5 with higher intensity strokes and smashed my distance PB from 6,817m to 7,223m.
2.04 split AVG
20-21 spm all the way through
5 Min splits : 2.15 for warm up then 2.03 - 2.03 - 2.03 - 2.02 - 2.02.
Hard work, had to focus the mind on five minute batches at a time because it got quite tough around the 12-15 minutes mark. Really happy with the splits consistency though. Was definitely not in a state to make a sprint towards the end !!

Astonishing improvement Papy. You seem to be a natural.

Galeere wrote:Astonishing improvement Papy. You seem to be a natural.

Just beginner's luck

A few questions and comments from the various responses :

Galeere wrote:Regarding drag / drag factor it is recommended to do all long range work at relative low drags.

Galeere, what drag factor do you do your 10K's or 60 min workouts at, for instance ?

Bob S. wrote:Re a pause at the finish: It is not recommended, but, of course, you need to change directions. What some coaches suggest is a slight downward curl of the handle at the finish and the reverse at the catch. It is a hangover from rowing in a boat where the oars have to clear the water at the finish and reenter it at the catch. However, it helps on the erg as well to make it a continuous motion of the handle as you reverse its direction of motion. You hands have to move out fairly fast in order to clear your knees before they start to come up. The rest of the recovery is the slow part, sneaking up on the catch.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AOPQbP8hFmY
Bob S.

Bob, thank you for the video, very clearly explained. I was doing a sort of curl in the "early" days (copied from other rowers at the gym) but once I read I had to keep the chain straight on the recovery, that seemed to be contradicting the curl and I stuck to a flat movement throughout. As per galeere, that finish pause also helps with making sure I kept the recovery at the right timing. The OTW justification for the curl does make sense now and her movement is really slick throughout. I'll have a go at introducing the curl movement tomorrow night and see how that goes, and find the right balance with the recovery.

Bob S. wrote: I am puzzled about your question about leg drive. A problem involving a jerking motion is usually something involving arm pull, but obviously you meant something earlier. Some people recommend a drill (forget the name of it) that consists of a few strokes of arms only, then adding the backswing for a few more, and finally adding in leg drive in sections (quarter, half, full). I am not sure that this would help your particular problem. I would prefer a drill with the reverse order, legs only at first, add in backswing, and finally bring in the arms, but I have never heard of anyone else suggesting that.
Bob S.

jackarabit wrote: I'm at a loss to envision your description of a very hard leg drive associated with a "break in flow" before arm pull. The sequence on drive is legs, back, arms. You don't say much about a forward lean at catch or a layback at finish. I have an idea that you may not have the ability to compress your abdomen against your thighs at catch (the fwd lean). I hope you have the glute and core strength to lean back from the vertical during drive thus connecting the legs push to the arms to chest finish? I hope you're not flattening your legs without transferring the momentum to your core and extended arms before bringing in the arm finish--referred to in the biz as "butt shooting" or "shooting the slide." You say you're shifting iron for improved arm strength. I'm wondering if maybe you've got a good deal of arm strength and are relying on it for a large percentage of your output?

Bob, Jack, It's hard to explain. My understanding is that you have to do the leg drive with your arms straight, and only start pulling on your arms once your legs are straight, is that correct ? I do push on my legs during the drive but my straight arms are already engaged in the pulling before the legs are straight. To my eyes, I don't feel I do anything different than what the instructor is doing in the video above (other than the pause at the finish of course). To me, she is already pulling on her straight arms before her legs are straight as well (see section 1'25 to 1'40). My concern is that I don't feel, in that way, that my legs are fully involved power-wise in the process (let's put another way : I would expect my legs to be as "worn out" as my upper body at the end of the workout but that is not the case). Now, If I make a conscious point of pushing on my legs harder, in a more explosive way (but not to the point of jumping off my seat like in the video) and only pull on my arms once the legs are straight, this creates a slack in the stroke, which completely brakes the flow. if i do several strokes in that way, i do not see any gain in the split time either. That's what puzzles me. Am I trying to find a problem where there might not be one ?

I think I am enough at ease with the forward lean aspect in the catch, no discomfort felt there. In that phase, I try to focus on the shins position (stopping just before vertical, correct?). Jack, You might have a point re the lean back though. it does often come to my mind during a workout a moment when i think "hey you are not leaning back enough", I purposely correct it for a while but then I probably fall back into my comfortable stroke and that goes away again. I'll have to work on that. Will see what I could arrange for a video.

One thing though on your comment : I am struggling to visualise your point on transferring the momentum from the legs to the core/arms. could you elaborate on that please ?

jackarabit wrote: With regard to your weights workouts, don't neglect pecs, tris, shoulders because they don't contribute directly to the erg stroke. Same for hamstrings and abs. All the opposing sets of extensors and flexors need to be worked. Leg curls, presses, tri curls, dumbell flies or pushups maintain condition in muscle not heavily involved in erging. Jack

ok noted.

Thank you all again for your input so far. I'll go back to the drawing board meanwhile with this video that seemed to get general approval : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eqVmMd7FdAA

Re the sequence, legs/back/ arms: The legs, which are the strongest, get the drive started and the much weaker arms finish it off, with the body swing bridging the other 2. There is considerable overlap of the body swing with the other 2. of course, but there should be a minimum of overlap of the leg push and arm pull, otherwise you have the relatively weak arm muscles trying to compete with the power of the thighs and glutes. Another function of the arm pull on an indoor machine is to stop the backward momentum of your body initiated by the leg push and body swing. A good way to tell if the sequence is carried out properly is to row with the foot straps left off. If the arm pull is used up too early, the erger will go flying off the seat as a result of the momentum not being stopped. Many ergers use that trick successfully, but it has to be tried out cautiously, at low stroke rate, the first time you do it.

There are a number of different styles of timing the sequence. The attachment shows the four major ones:
Bob S.

Papy writes:

One thing though on your [Jack's] comment : I am struggling to visualise your point on transferring the momentum from the legs to the core/arms. could you elaborate on that please ?

Papy, given your pace and endurance after 2-1/2 weeks on the seat, it seems to me that your stroke probably doesn't exhibit some horrible functional deficit or form break UNTIL you attempt to isolate arm "pull" from legs extension. I raised the spectre of butt scooting In previous answer but I'm not confident that's what you're doing. The arms to finish (elbows flexed) should not precede legs flat. However the extended arms are a connecting rod between handle and shoulders and are put under load or tension immediately at the catch. We don't have an action word for this load transfer but it certainly occurs coincident with the catch. The back or core is engaged (tensed or held rigid) at the initiation of leg drive. At some time thereafter, the back moves thru vertical and commences the backswing. Some experts represent this hinging of the back at the hips as occuring AFTER legs down. In my experience and observation, this backswing or layback occurs coincident with leg action.

I notice you mention the possibility of coming off the seat during the leg drive. Of course we don't actually want to lose all contact with the seat but we do want to feel that we are suspending our body weight on the chain. In my case, hanging from the chain and the commencement of layback (back angle moving thru vertical) are I believe not simultaneous but certainly mostly coincident. I am told this is wrong and the back or torso should be maintained at an unchanging angle to vertical until after legs down. This view of ideal erging biomechanics is one my body apparently does not share! If you can delay initiation of layback until legs down that's fine but I believe a natural, unforced layback movement is necessary to smooth the entire sequence of movement of the drive. If you are feeling some jerk or discontinuity on the drive, my advice would be try to blend the action of legs and back but isolate arms to finish. We have talked about the monitor force curve as a diagnostic tool just recently. Please examine yours for a spike or dip. Is there one? Where does it fall on the curve?
Jack

jackarabit wrote:Papy writes:

The back or core is engaged (tensed or held rigid) at the initiation of leg drive. At some time thereafter, the back moves thru vertical and commences the backswing. Some experts represent this hinging of the back at the hips as occuring AFTER legs down. In my experience and observation, this backswing or layback occurs coincident with leg action.

Jack

All of those graphs show the body swing coming in early. In the DDR and Adam styles, it is very early. In the DDR style there is a surprising amount of leg/arm overlap. Of course these studies were done for OTW rowing and are not necessarily that pertinent to erging.

Another thought - I didn't notice if the amount of backswing has been brought up here. "Conventional wisdom" is the 1:00 O'clock/11:00 O'clock rule, i.e. 15 degrees each way. I think that it is the best way to go, even if I don't (read can't) do it myself.

Bob S.

Papy wrote:
A few questions and comments from the various responses :

Galeere wrote:Regarding drag / drag factor it is recommended to do all long range work at relative low drags.

Galeere, what drag factor do you do your 10K's or 60 min workouts at, for instance ?

Around 130, but from reading other posts that seems to be above average. Before tendons, muscles etc. got used to the strain I would recommend lower values.