New rower looking for advice.

[Stanger127]

Hi Everyone!

Just got my new PM5 Model D set up last week and I'm looking for some advice.

I'm 33 years old, 6'1", 155lbs. I have previously been in very good shape in my life as a collegiate soccer player and triathlon competitor. About 3 years ago I fell down a manhole (seriously) and messed up my knee pretty bad. I've been trying to find something to stay in shape but running and biking really hurt my knee. I went to the gym and tried out a few machines and found that the rower bothered my knee the least.

I wanted to make sure I wasn't going to hurt myself, so I've just been rowing at a fairly leisurely pace with the damper set on 4. I've been doing 4000m in a 30 minute TV show with a small break every 1000m. At this point I am confident that I'm not going to hurt myself and am ready to get into a workout routine.

I'm looking to use the rower to build muscles in my back and upper body as well as get a cardio workout, I don't want to "get ripped", just looking for some tone (sort of the look good naked approach). I have read that setting the damper higher can increase the upper body workout, but have also heard many people suggest against high damper settings.

Any advice as to routines and programs that would accomplish this goal would be appriciated. Right now I'm using the "just row" function, but it seems like the PM5 has lots of cool stuff that I haven't yet discovered. I'm also a tech geek, so I'm not affraid to try out various computer interfaces if you have good suggestions (I've heard about RowPro, but I mostly plan on watching TV while a row so the racing part might be a bit too interactive for me at this point).

Thanks.

[jamesg]

I'm also a tech geek

Good, you'll be well aware of the importance of know-how. Aboard the erg this is mostly low drag, good posture, full length, and can be seen in the C2 technique videos.

"Just Row" is the best possible solution, because it'll make you sweat without getting lost. It's what we do, just row. The numbers on screen help too: at 155 lb, and with your height, you need to get to see 155 W asap, which is a high enough load to make you sweat but shouldn't hurt joints too much. 30-40 minutes a day of that will get you fit.

[hjs]

If your knees can handle it, the c2 is a very handy piece of work.

At the moment, your row at a very relax pace/effort. Rowing in itself as excercise is not different from running or cycling its a bit more powerbased, but aerobic fitness is by far the most important.

Its not really an upperbody movement, the legs/lower back does the most of work. Setting the drag higher does not alter that. (Search for drag)

My first advice would be to keep on doing what you do, without the breaks and increese the effort, see how your knees holds up. If that works out ok, look further.

For paces look at the rankings from concept, this will give you an idea what level you roughly are on.

[Stanger127]

you need to get to see 155 W asap,

Is that drag factor? The only thing I see under power is "Peak force 90lbs avg force 74lbs", should that number be 155? if so, wow, lol.

[Bob S.]

you need to get to see 155 W asap,

Is that drag factor? The only thing I see under power is "Peak force 90lbs avg force 74lbs", should that number be 155? if so, wow, lol.

That's 155 watts, which you can get by changing units - the others are pace (in time per 500m), and Calories per hour. Most forum members use pace and 155 watts corresponds to a pace of 2:11.2/500m. 4000m in 30' would be a pace of 3:45/500m, which would be an energy output of 31 watts. As hjs pointed out, that is a very relaxed effort. It is quite possible that you can increase that a lot by making sure that you are using the proper technique. hjs also mentioned that the legs should be doing most of the work. The drive starts with pushing hard with the legs and following through with the backswing and finishing it off with the arms. The recovery should be slow and relaxed.

Bob S.

[Stanger127]

Gotcha. I've watched the videos on proper technique over and over, but I can't seem to get a leg workout. I think I still have massively disproportionately large leg muscles compared to my upper body. The leg portion feels like nothing to me but my back and arms are getting tired/sore. I stepped up the pace in my last 2 workouts and did 3000m in 15:00 with an avg of 2:29/500m (just switched units to watts after tonight's workout). Like I said, my biggest problem still feels like my back/upper body and I think I just need to get a little stronger in those areas before I can start pushing myself cardiovascularly (I'm sweating, but not ever getting to the point where my body tells me I'm tired).

Thanks for all the help, I'm sure I'll have plenty more questions as I progress here.

[Bob S.]

Typically, top rowers have heavy thighs and only moderate upper body development, except for lats. If your arms are getting tired, you might be starting the arm pull too soon. It should not begin until the legs are about straight. Otherwise, you have the relatively weak muscles of the arms competing with the much stronger muscles of the legs. The push with the legs should be about complete before you start to bend your elbows to pull with your arms. On the recovery, it is exactly the opposite - hands away fairly quickly and past your knees before your knees start to rise. Rowing without the foot straps helps to get the feel for proper sequencing of the elements of the drive. I didn't see anything in your posts about stroke rate. At your height, a rate of 20 strokes per minute would about right for training sessions and working on technique. Racing and time trials are done at much higher rates, but low rates are more effective for working on technique and building up your rowing strength.

One thing to watch out for is shooting the slide. This refers to pushing the seat back with your legs and not keeping up with the handle. When that happens, a lot of that hard work done by the legs is lost and the back has to make up for it.

Bob S.

[DanielJ]

With good technique, you should be looking for a hard, snappy push with your legs, fast enough so that you do indeed feel a kind of catch in your quads.

But with that said, the erg won't do much in terms of muscular development. You might get a tiny bit, but not much.

[hjs]

Gotcha. I've watched the videos on proper technique over and over, but I can't seem to get a leg workout. I think I still have massively disproportionately large leg muscles compared to my upper body. The leg portion feels like nothing to me but my back and arms are getting tired/sore. I stepped up the pace in my last 2 workouts and did 3000m in 15:00 with an avg of 2:29/500m (just switched units to watts after tonight's workout). Like I said, my biggest problem still feels like my back/upper body and I think I just need to get a little stronger in those areas before I can start pushing myself cardiovascularly (I'm sweating, but not ever getting to the point where my body tells me I'm tired).

Thanks for all the help, I'm sure I'll have plenty more questions as I progress here.

Can you do a set of pullups? And do pushups. Those are not directly related, but given you an idea how strong your upperbody is. For the rest, just keep making the meters, no doubt you will rapidly improve.

[G-dub]

I found that for the first few months my arms and back felt it more due to having not used them as much biking and running. So it wasn't so much that I was using them too much on the erg, it was just that they had to catch up with the lower body in terms of fitness. This may be what you are feeling too. And I also needed to get better technique because I was pulling with arms to quickly.

[jamesg]

I can't seem to get a leg workout

This is because you're not using them. It's technique.

To work the legs, you need to produce high Watts at low rating (say 200W at rate 20). This is done by pulling long strokes: if the handle travels about 5 feet, 150cm, during the pull, then your legs must be working. Keep the rating down (20) otherwise you'll collapse too soon.

The key index of technique is Watts/Rating. 10 is a handy number to remember; and use.

[Cyclingman1]

Mr Stanger127 the erg is not a weightlifting device. This talk of a workout and feeling something in your legs is off base. A runner doesn't talk about going out for a "leg" workout, unless one is maybe running stadium steps. The erg is a machine for cardio vascular work that, of course, obviously uses legs, arms, back. The workout, if that is what one wants to call it, is most definitely cardio vascular and will generate overall fatigue, not a workout like doing 25 squats with body weight. It is not a body building device. One's body can change after millions of meters on a erg and the changes are subtle.

You are hardly the first person who has written claiming that they cannot get a workout on an erg. Every time the answer is that the person is not using decent technique and is thereby not putting forth a good effort. It actually is not possible to not get a tiring workout on an erg if one is using it correctly.

The main thing that you must do is from the catch position, that is, legs compressed and up on toes, hands near the fan housing, back leaned forward, and arms nearly straight, is drive off strongly with the legs on the toes keeping your arms straight and your back leaned forward. The handle and the seat move back simultaneously. Don't, as Bob says, shoot the seat back without the handle also moving. When the legs are almost straight the back moves backward and the arms begin to bend. When the back completes about a 20deg movement the arms continue bending with a snappy movement, the handle coming to the sternum. The recovery is just the opposite. As soon as the handle touches the sternum, immediately thrust it forward, rotate the back forward, and then compress legs and come up on your toes and get back to the original catch position.

You most definitely should not be using a high damper setting. You only get bogged down. You need to learn about drag factor. I wouldn't think that you would be above about 125 or so. Regarding stroke rate. There is a wide range of opinion about that. My thought on that is that in a way you will find a stroke rate that is comfortable. You have to pull long strokes with power, you have to recover, and you have to sustain that for your workout. And you want to see good wattage and/or pace numbers. If you are not pulling with power or not recovering slowly enough, your numbers will be poor and/or you will run out of gas quickly. You can play around with stroke rate after you learn what is an optimum number for you. Yes, low rates are good for technique and power development at some time. There are plenty, including world record holders, who don't do low rate work, however.

The bottom line is do not say that you cannot get a workout from an erg. All you are really saying is that you are using poor technique with insufficient effort. When you get that corrected, you will get a workout and then some. And then you will find out why people dread doing sub-7min 2K's. It's because it is a hell of a workout. You only wish you were doing a few squats on a squat machine. Your 2:29/500m will be a distant memory. A 33 yr old ex-athlete, assuming your knee is healed, should be far closer to 2:00/500m.

[tortoise]

. . . drive off strongly with the legs on the toes . . .

Why with the legs on the toes? I ask because I have had to give up running for erging because of foot problems, specifically what feels like permanent stone bruises at the bases of my toes. I push with feet flat on the plates, and the footplates one position higher than I might otherwise use, so I can keep them that way. Am I doomed to poor performance because of this?

[Cyclingman1]

The thing with being on toes or actually on ball of foot is that it is also connected with ankle flexibility. It's not mandatory to be on toes. And some do find more power with raising the foot plate. I've played around with foot plate position a lot. But I would say that forcing one's feet to maintain total plate contact is a bad idea. Do people jump from their heels or their toes? Enough said.

[Stanger127]

The bottom line is do not say that you cannot get a workout from an erg. All you are really saying is that you are using poor technique with insufficient effort. When you get that corrected, you will get a workout and then some. And then you will find out why people dread doing sub-7min 2K's. It's because it is a hell of a workout. You only wish you were doing a few squats on a squat machine. Your 2:29/500m will be a distant memory. A 33 yr old ex-athlete, assuming your knee is healed, should be far closer to 2:00/500m.

First of all, thank you for all the information. I have no doubt that I will get my money's worth from the erg, and I think you may have misunderstood my post. I didn't say I couldn't get a workout, I said I can't feel it much in my legs yet. I've ignored my upper body for basically my whole life (aside from swimming) while building extremely strong leg muscles. The erg won't let me just get away with just having leg power and my back and arms are finally having to put forth effort. I just need a bit of time for my back and arms to catch up I think. I recorded myself a bit tonight so I could check my technique and it seems to match what I've found on youtube, time will tell I guess.