Concept2 Forum

I watched this video by Josh Crosby and in it he states that rowing is 80% legs. I wouldn't have guessed that but then I'm new to this. I'd never be one to question what he says but would what he says be the general consensus of many of you here?

If it's not 80% legs in your opinion what would you put the number at?

Thanks.

Kevin

In my completely unscientific guess, I think that seems a little high. This article discusses that "as much as 60% of the power generated in a rowing stroke is developed in the legs and core." I'm not sure who wrote the article though: http://www.faqs.org/sports-science/Pl-S ... cises.html

i could agree with it being 80% legs.After being at a competition last year i changed my technique after watching some of the really fast guys.My legs seem to have grown quiet a lot since then,and i have got faster on all my personal bests.

In general, but in no scientific way. As a relatively new regular rower, it seems like I gain most in times when I concentrate on the power I put into the push. Your legs have some pretty massive muscles, and since you spend a lot of your life using them (standing up, sitting down, walking, running, etc.) they are developed to bear more weight and do more than your arms and shoulders.

I would concur that it is 80% legs and every coach I've had has said the same thing and they know a LOT more than me

It might be 80%, but you need to think and train like its 100%. Most people (myself included) rely on their backs and arms too much. You can see people opening their backs too early in the drive and going for that extra 2 inches at the catch with their shoulders. All bad technique that hurts performance.

I think it's a lot less, try to row with your arms/back only and you will see that you can easily get 20 % of the power you use in a total stroke.
But does it really matter what the exact % is? I don,t think so.

I've run across the perception that "rowing doesn't work the legs". I won't fight that battle here, as I think we'd all be on the same side

I think the 80% figure is a bit of an over-compensation against that perception.

I agree with the comment above. Rowing is a good full body workout. Percentages are hard to defend.

Doug

The way I see it, the legs break the inertia that the flywheel has, they get your stroke going. And that takes a lot of force, requiring a lot of endurance to do it over and over again.

You would easily throw out your back or pull arm muscles trying to apply that sort of force to act as the legs do. That's not to say that your arms and back don't generate power, in fact they can be very effective, especially if you lock your shoulders well at the catch and prepare your lats/deltoids to pull once your legs and back activate.

Just to add my experiences...

I have fooled around with some novice racing before at arms (and arms and back only)...and I have found that arms only I can reach about a 1:55 average for a couple strokes, and with arms and back I can reach 1:38 for a couple strokes as well. I did a 100m sprint (half arms, half arms and back) and the final average was a 1:43. All messing around of course.

If I add the legs in and repeat, I can maintain a low split of 1:18-1:19 for a few strokes. Not trying to refute the 80% figure...but figured I would see if anyone had comments on my "numbers" I guess lol.

djh wrote:I've run across the perception that "rowing doesn't work the legs".

Don't know where that perception comes from. Can tell you without a doubt that whoever says that does not understand rowing.

Of course the exact percentage is not really meaningful. I would maintain that it is closer to 90%. However my point is that all of the focus should be on the legs. the arms and back will come automatically and in most cases are being used too much. Now you need a strong core and strong arms only so that the power generated from the legs is properly transferred into the oar handle. In fact the legs are so much stronger that if we row properly we have to have strong arms and core just to keep from being left behind.

To recap: If you think about nothing else during the drive it is driving the legs down. Relax the arms. Relax the back. If you're thinking about pulling hard with your arms or back you are rowing incorrectly.

Elamonta wrote:Just to add my experiences...

I have fooled around with some novice racing before at arms (and arms and back only)...and I have found that arms only I can reach about a 1:55 average for a couple strokes, and with arms and back I can reach 1:38 for a couple strokes as well. I did a 100m sprint (half arms, half arms and back) and the final average was a 1:43. All messing around of course.

If I add the legs in and repeat, I can maintain a low split of 1:18-1:19 for a few strokes. Not trying to refute the 80% figure...but figured I would see if anyone had comments on my "numbers" I guess lol.

If you want to play with the numbers and come up with anything meaningful, you will have to convert the pace values to watts to be able to make valid comparisons.

tdekoekkoek wrote:

djh wrote:I've run across the perception that "rowing doesn't work the legs".

Don't know where that perception comes from. Can tell you without a doubt that whoever says that does not understand rowing.

I don't think that most people realize that, even with a fixed-seat rowboat, the legs get into the act. That is not to say that the legs are moving, but they are definitely getting an isometric workout. I started rowing in heavy skiffs over seventy-five years ago and quickly learned that my strokes were not very effective unless I had my heels hooked on ribs of the skiff. It was easy to note that there was a lot of tension in the thighs.

A few years later, I got into sweep rowing in college and I remember my coach saying that the thighs are the drivers and the arms and back are just linkage. He was probably exaggerating to get the point across, but it was an important point. The muscles that seem to get the most development in OTW rowers are the quads. As far as the upper body is concerned, one would think that the biceps would build up but that is not the case. The major upper body development is in the lats. Perhaps it is different for those who row only on indoor rowers, but it is what I have observed in OTW rowers.

Recently, on one of the local lakes, I saw a little oar-propelled pontoon boat made for fishing. It could be folded up and stored in the trunk of a car. I was curious about it and the owner was happy to show it off. The one thing that I wondered about was how did the rower brace his feet to get the most out of a stroke. I mentioned this and, sure enough, the designer had thought of this and there were a couple bars that you could use to brace your heels. The seat was fixed, of course, and the oars were very short, so it was not what you would call speedy. But for fishing out on a small, calm lake, it would be more than adequate.

Bob S.

Thanks for all of your comments. I'm new to this and I'm trying to understand proper technique. It appears that there's more to it than meets the eye.

I need to reevaluate the coordination of my leg drive because it seems I'm just getting into the meat of the drive as my legs have finished their push and I'm left finishing the majority of the stroke with my arms doing most of the work. Needless to say my arms are suffering and have me off the machine for the last week while the recover.

I read in another thread about somebody having a similar problem until they adjusted the damper to a harder setting which solved the problem.

To me though it sounds like I've got a flaw in my technique. I've been careful to mimic what they're doing in the videos I've been watching including the one which came with my C2. I'll try the damper setting next to see if I notice a difference.

My wife took this video when we first got our C2. You can see a few seconds of my technique at the beginning and end. Maybe you can see what I'm doing wrong in it. Thanks.

Kevin

Hi onekgguy,

I've pulled some screen-shots from your video for discussion purposes:

starting with the finish(#1), then recovery (##2-4), the catch (#5) and the drive (##6-8).

I don't know if you're thinking about rowing as "pulling the handle", but it looks as though that might be the case. I'd like you to start from a different perspective. Think about it as pushing the rowing machine away from you with your legs with high torque (that's at least some of what the 70% legs or 80% or 90% legs comments are getting at). Before you can push that hard, you'll need to brace your body to be able to push against it and your back will need to be stable and not move while you're pushing, or otherwise the effort you're making will not move the chain. Since you want to transmit all of the power you can into the chain, you'll want to "hang off the chain" and maintain a stable linkage with your back and arms.

Here are some diagrams I did for myself (I seem to be missing the "finish one"--sorry) when I was trying to sort technique out which might help you (you can see larger versions of these by clicking on them):


Here's a link to an "Flip Luisi's animated tutorial using a similar stick figure" which is well regarded. And here is a link to an annimation of "Xeno Muller's stroke cycle." Xeno's stroke cycle is helpful because you can either click your way through it, using the "arrow keys" on your keyboard to examine various facets of the stroke--or you can hold an arrow key down and watch the annimation at full speed.

With those resources, I'll make a few observations about your body position. Note that you won’t want to try to think about all of this at the same time, but they will be useful things to notice as you review the two animations and my diagrams.

1. Sit on your “sitz bones” on the front half of the seat. I see (##1-2) that you’re sitting toward the back of the seat, with your pelvis “tucked under.” This means that in order to reach forward, you’re pivoting forward from the top of your pelvis (which almost has you in the top position in a crunch. Contracted abs and extended lower back which may make your back vulnerable to injury).

2. Your back and arms are the connection between your leg drive and the flywheel. Their role (during the leg drive) is to be a stable connection—you shouldn’t be swinging the back or pulling on the arms during the leg drive. If you do either (swing or pull—see #6), you will be limiting the force the leg drive can put into the flywheel to what the arms & back can do/hold.

2. Sit “tall”—raise your collar bone and drop and relax your shoulders. Your torso should be strong, stable and supported by your abs & your lats. Your shoulders should be supported against the drive by your lats, but if you have your shoulders raised, your lats can't help you withstand the leg drive. If the image is helpful, think about the posture of a top-notch ballet dancer—balanced, graceful and able to move in any direction. Your ears should be as far away from your shoulders as you can get them.

3. Pivot from the hip (where your thighbone inserts into your hip)—instead of from the top of the pelvis/lower back. When you pivot from the lower back, you're using your abs and extending your lower back muscles. Instead use your abs & lats (both!) to stabilize your torso and your hip flexors to hold your stable torso against the leg drive.

4. When the leg drive is nearly exhausted is the time to open the back, and when the back swing is nearly exhausted is the time to “pull” with the arms. Both the back swing and the arm pull portions of the drive are much, much shorter than the leg drive. (You shouldn't have a position during the drive like ##6-7 you're opening your back & pulling with your arms before you've finished your leg drive.)

5. Don’t pull with your shoulders (see ##1 and 6 and the tension in your shoulders). Keep your shoulders relaxed, your forearms parallel with the floor, your elbows close to your ribs and use your think of using your back (lats) to move your elbows (and thus your forearms and the handle) behind you—you’ll end up w/ the handle against your sternum. Don't let your elbows "wing" out (see #1-3 & 8).

6. Make “hooks” of your hands (the thumb can be below the handle, but doesn’t need to grip it at all!) and try to keep your hands/forearms (relatively) relaxed. You should be able to wiggle your fingers on the recovery. Your wrist, and the top of your hand should be flat and aligned with your forearm. You’re gripping the handle too tightly (I can see the muscle tension in your forearms).

7. Don’t think of the finish as a time to pause…your hands should move back out with the same speed they came in. Let your hands lead your arms back to a full extension. And your extended arms should lead your tall-stable-torso forward.

8. Once your extended arms have cleared your knees, pivoting from the hip, your torso should angle forward as you move toward the catch position. By contrast, see #4 in your recovery.

9. The catch angle (of your torso to the rail), once attained during the recovery, will be maintained until late in the drive when you’ve expended your leg drive. You will need to hold that angle against the pressure of the leg drive.

10. As you move into the catch, your shin should come close to but not past vertical. You can allow your heel to rise as needed to get you into that vertical position. You’ll begin the drive by moving your heels down and forward forcefully.

HTH,

Alissa