Force graph -- help with technique?

[gcanyon]

After watching Pete Dreissigacker talk about force curves and testing yourself on a damper setting of 1: https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=p ... iQ0Mqlk_Lo

I (for the first time in 3+ million meters) paid attention to the force curve, and as far as I can tell it doesn't look good: http://imgur.com/nUHGCp0

I think this is saying that I way under-use my legs when I row. But when I tried to get my curve into shape, I found that I was pulling *way* too hard to sustain for anything more than about 500 meters. Does this mean I need to re-shape the curve by consciously pulling less with my torso/arms -- in essence fix it by bringing down the right side of the curve rather than by raising the left side of the curve? Or??

Not sure what to do here, but from what I've learned recently that curve is holding me back, right?

[quickstepper]

I think this is saying that I way under-use my legs when I row. But when I tried to get my curve into shape, I found that I was pulling *way* too hard to sustain for anything more than about 500 meters. Does this mean I need to re-shape the curve by consciously pulling less with my torso/arms -- in essence fix it by bringing down the right side of the curve rather than by raising the left side of the curve? Or??

Not sure what to do here, but from what I've learned recently that curve is holding me back, right?

You definitely should focus more on the leg drive. As others will mention... Rowing should be a pushing motion with the legs. Don't think of it as a pull.

I haven't gotten the curve to be like Pete's yet either. Mine's a nice even parabola but I can see from his video that I'm missing power in the initial drive in the legs. Not sure if I have the fast twitch muscle fibers to get the same results but I'll keep trying. Never had the explosive power.

Check out this video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9a3zSSdewcU
or this one:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZhiDAxyzIr4
Along with the videos from concept 2 of course.

Don't go all out. Try to focus on a slow even pull from start to finish to play with the curve. It may be a flatter parabola but it will give you a feel for where the power should come from.

Good luck.
Marco

[brianh]

A couple of things to try - during the leg drive make sure your body is tense enough that for every inch the seat moves, the handle moves an inch as well. I'd guess you're shooting the slide. If it still looks wonky (2 peaks) after that, start the movement of your upper body a little earlier. When I got my machine I pretty much rowed only while looking at the force curve for the first 200-300k, and whenever I'm doing a warmup, cooldown, or recovery pace row I use the force curve view as well. As a result I've got pretty good muscle memory and my curve looks good unless I'm really fatigued. You're more meters in than I am, so you're probably going to have to work at it pretty specifically for quite a while to retrain all the muscle memory you've acquired.

[jamesg]

Not sure what to do here, but from what I've learned recently that curve is holding me back, right?

Try the backstop drill; you can see it in the C2 technique video.

[hjs]

You miss the start, but at rate 26 and 2.09 pace overall its a not so strong stroke. At what drag is this stroke?

Try to have the arms fully extended at the start of the drive, this could help, but again with the force you in your stroke its hard to get a fluent curve. Maybe up the drag a bit.

How does it look when you race faster or use a low strokerate?

[gcanyon]

hjs, the drag factor is 1 because the point Pete Dreissigacker was making in the video was that low drag factors will show your flaws like this. He suggests fixing your form on 1, and then trying higher drag factors. I'll try a higher drag factor to see what it looks like, but the argument is that I could still have a bad form that the force curve won't show (as clearly) on higher drag factors.

I did 2000 meters last night specifically focusing on form, on drag factor 1. My form generally looks okay -- I've posted videos in the past and no one saw anything wrong. My arms are extended, my legs go first, I'm not shooting my butt out, etc. But I managed to get a few curves last night that looked reasonable, and I could definitely feel that I was doing things very differently on those strokes.

[gcanyon]

A couple of things to try - during the leg drive make sure your body is tense enough that for every inch the seat moves, the handle moves an inch as well. I'd guess you're shooting the slide.

Pretty sure I'm not doing this -- I've posted videos before and no one pointed it out (and I didn't see it). One thing I realized is that my ankles are very inflexible, so at the start of the drive, my heels aren't against the footplates. That means for some distance I'm pushing through my toes. I'm thinking that might be a factor, and I'm working specifically to stretch my achilles tendon/calf.

You're more meters in than I am, so you're probably going to have to work at it pretty specifically for quite a while to retrain all the muscle memory you've acquired.

Yeah, that's what I'm thinking as well :-/

[hjs]

hjs, the drag factor is 1 because the point Pete Dreissigacker was making in the video was that low drag factors will show your flaws like this. He suggests fixing your form on 1, and then trying higher drag factors. I'll try a higher drag factor to see what it looks like, but the argument is that I could still have a bad form that the force curve won't show (as clearly) on higher drag factors.

I did 2000 meters last night specifically focusing on form, on drag factor 1. My form generally looks okay -- I've posted videos in the past and no one saw anything wrong. My arms are extended, my legs go first, I'm not shooting my butt out, etc. But I managed to get a few curves last night that looked reasonable, and I could definitely feel that I was doing things very differently on those strokes.

The main problem was your pace and rate. At such a low pace the force is simply to low to catch the flywheel. If
I use a low drag, the graph will be very narrow, at higher drag it gets broader and less high.

Setting 1 means not much, its about drag at that setting.

[mg6682]

Try this drill

https://instagram.com/p/3MKhRcATHR/

[jackarabit]

Had several looks at Shane Farmer in slomo. Confirmed for me something I've thought about for several months now. Is Shane opening his back consequent to leg extension or coincident with? Altho the driving down of the thighs does open the hip angle and mask the layback, I could see the back angle change from the gitgo in relation to the building in the background. Notice that this vid is called " legs and body only" isolate drill rather than simply legs only as in several other isolation drills. No question that locking the core and extended arms is necessary to transfer leg power to chain pull but I think the abs and back muscles only lock momentarily at catch to avoid the butt scoot and the back opens very quickly and mostly coincident with leg drive. If one wants to maximize the light on the seat/hanging from the handle effect, of what possible advantage is a static back that delays and wastes the cantilevering of body weight? The actual "consequent" back movement follows after the legs are flat and is only a finish or extension of a back swing from fwd lean to layback that accompanies rather than follows leg drive. Watch any gym rat doing a squat jump movement. No one in my experience locks their back with their backside protruding after the squat recovery and then makes the jump bent over at the waist! That would be a sequence of movement and lack of movement analogous to shooting the slide. Jack

[jamesg]

of what possible advantage is a static back that delays and wastes the cantilevering of body weight?

I get noticeably higher Watts at the same rating, if I use the legs - swing - arms sequence. A test is soon done. Using Watts, the display resolution is good enough to see it immediately.

In this sequence, muscles are used in decreasing order of size, and this seems less fatiguing and more effective in moving what has to be moved at the time, which is not just the flywheel.

[jackarabit]

A reasonable suggestion which I will attempt to follow. Jack

[hjs]

A reasonable suggestion which I will attempt to follow. Jack

Watch you back, you will get a hard hit when the stroke ends all of a sudden.

[jackarabit]

Done the legs only drill before, Henry. It is a bit like chopping snakes with a hoe: guaranteed to spaz the back. The Farmer video is another animal--catch to finish rather than catch to legs down. Jack

[gcanyon]

At such a low pace the force is simply to low to catch the flywheel.

That could be; I went back and noticed that in the vide Pete Dreissigacker is pulling a ~1:40 pace when he's showing good form, where I'm going much slower. It isn't pace though -- he's rowing <30spm.