Concept2 Forum

I originally posted to Ballgame's topic but decided to repost here so I could be held accountable.

Started a plan of doing Tabata rows 5 evenings a week ,10 days ago.

I am 43 210 lbs 5'10". Been rowing and doing Crossfit regularly for 8 weeks I have been told I have decent technique but am sure I could improve technique, ok strength for a recent coach potato, and poor to average aerobic capabilities for my age. Concurrently I also started a 24 day diet ~ 10 days ago and lost 11 lbs so far but that is another story.

Best previous 2000m time 8:07.

After the first week I had improved my Tabata meters rowed per session by 4.5% so targeted a 4.5% increase in my average pace for the 2000m row on day 7 I tested it an got a the 4.5% improvement in my 2000m time to 7:45.

As of last night which was my 9th day my total Tabata improvement was at 5.5%, hope to be at 7% improvement by day 14 for my next 2000m test .

Overall hoping to achieve a 14% improvement in my tabata meters rowed over 8-12 weeks which if it carries over to my 2000m time will bring be me to a 2000m time of 7:00 in february.

I don't pace myself at all on the tabata rounds I go all out every round so far my best round is at a 1:25 pace. Overall average for all 8 rounds last night was at 1:41.1 pace. (I had one horrendous round were I could barely catch my breath)

Also started doing weight training in am 4x week. Mostly focusing on Pull-Ups,squats, and deadlifts. One rep max's in lbs for deadlift is 365 for squat 255 for shoulder press 135. First week of this plan I worked exclusively on Pullup Ladders went from a max of 4 strict pullups to 10 strict pull ups. week 2 will focus on squats and pullups week 3 deadlifts and pullups etc

Have temporarily halted the crossfit with the diet, weight training and Tabata I just don't have enough left to do Crossfit. Also the reason i didn't go with Petes Plan or Wolverine Plan, just don't have the extra energy/time and my main goal for the next 14 days is weight loss although improving my 2k time is very important to me.

I know very little about rowing so my plan may not be the smartest but it is only 160 seconds of hard work in the evenings. So I hope I can keep it up for atleast 2-3 months

So far have improved a little bit each night and I am motivated to beat my total meters each night, it really keeps me going. I am sure the progress will come slower after the first 2 weeks.

I think a lot of the improvement so far has to do with the mental component, the tabata is teaching me that I can push through a lot more than I thought I could just 10 days ago.

Also usually do a 5 min warm-up and 5 min cool down if I am not on the floor for too long afterwards. I try to focus on perfect technique during these periods as I am sure it breaks down during the Tabata. My warm up and cool downs are usually at a 2:20 to 2:35 pace.

I know this looks like a recipe for burnout but I plan to ditch the rapid weight loss diet in 2 weeks and hopefully it will be much easier after that. I plan to start doing crossfit again as well once diet is over.

Wow, that sounds brutal! Also sounds like it's working for you.

I've read some about Tabata but haven't tried it, maybe I'll give it a go for a couple weeks and track my improvement (or pain). I'd be interested in hearing other people's experience with this plan with rowing.

Thanks would love to here about others success with tabata as well. The original study, done on rowers, showed a VO2 max increase of 14% and an increase of anaerobic capacity by 28% after doing the tabata exercise 5 days a week for 6 weeks.

Basic exercise is 8 rounds of 20 seconds on 10 seconds off, no pacing.

I would not try unless you are very used to to High intensity training and sure you have no heart or other medical issues.

First time I tried a Tabata, I did tabata squats ended up stopping after 3.5 rounds with an exertion headache that lasted for days.

Here is a link describing more about it

http://www.cbass.com/SEARCHOF.HTM

Did a "trial" Tabata this evening. I first did a UT1 (C2 UK Interactive plan; Intense aerobic, my heart rate ~150) to log the Holiday Challenge meters, then set the monitor for :21 work, :10 rest. I gave myself the extra second to take the first one or two strokes easier to get the fan up to speed without throwing out my back.

Average pace for the eight intervals: 1:41.3, heart rate for #1 was 150, and by #8 it was 172. It was pretty intense! I'll continue those several times a week, I can see where they will be beneficial. I swear the :10 tick off way faster than the :21 !

I don't think you could do that exclusively to try to get your best 2k time, however, because you still need the strength and endurance to go for 7 or so minutes at maximum effort, even if you have a high VO2 max. Obviously, a weight lifting plan helps that. I'd still recommend some longer pieces at a good pace, maybe some pyramids to vary the rate and exertion level and keep it interesting, and work on your technique - that's where people tend to lose it at the end of the 2k when they are about to pass out, trust me!

Nice work on the tabata

I don't think you could do that(Tabata) exclusively to try to get your best 2k time, however, because you still need the strength and endurance to go for 7 or so minutes at maximum effort, even if you have a high VO2 max. Obviously, a weight lifting plan helps that. I'd still recommend some longer pieces at a good pace

You may be right but my test is to see if I can get a great 2k time only rowing hard ~2 minutes a day.

In runnning for example V02max is a poor predictor of finish and so is "v" basically stride or stroke efficiency. Put them together though and you get vV02max. Line up a group of 5k running participants from high to low vV02max and you have a fairly acurate predictor of the finish order. I am very interested if this is equally true in rowing I bet it is but admitedly this could be a waste of time.

So the Tabata is covering my V02max improvement hopefully better than rowing long distances could, the strength training is hopfully helping the efficiency of my stroke, but I also need technique work to help my efficiency. I am trying to use my warm up and cool downs to improve technique but I just don't know enough about rowing technique to evaluate if I am truly impoving.

Is there some combination of measures that I can use to see if my stroke efficiency is truly improving, and is there anyway to ascertain how much of that efficiency improvement is coming from strength training vs technical improvements.

If the experts on this board have some advice I would truly appreciate.

Hello,
Thanks for the interesting post JDay. I am far from "one of those experts on these boards", but I can offer some observations:
1. Correlation between high vo2 max and good running times <> high vo2 max is primarly/only input to a good running time. My guess is you would find resting heart rate, miles/ week run, and # races run are also correlated with doing well in a run.
2. That said, it seems very logical to assume that a high vo2 max is a good thing and that your program should be at least "good" at moving towards your goal. My guess is that your technique and strength improvements make up most of your gains. You may be able to get to 7 minutes just doing tabata, weights, and 1 or 2 2k rows per week; if you do, then vo2 max is very important, as per your hypothesis.
3. I do some tabata as well, but don't have the same goals. I do longer rows to simulate the long term energy production of cycling. I will let you know in a month or so whether or not tabata has had a positive impact on my shorter times (or longer times for that matter).
Merry Christmas! GK

Oops. Forgot to mention that the relationship between m/s and power is cubic. If vo2 max is directly proportional to power, you would need a 33% increase in power to see a 10% reduction in time (roughly speaking).

JDay wrote:Nice work on the tabata

I don't think you could do that(Tabata) exclusively to try to get your best 2k time, however, because you still need the strength and endurance to go for 7 or so minutes at maximum effort, even if you have a high VO2 max. Obviously, a weight lifting plan helps that. I'd still recommend some longer pieces at a good pace

You may be right but my test is to see if I can get a great 2k time only rowing hard ~2 minutes a day.

In runnning for example V02max is a poor predictor of finish and so is "v" basically stride or stroke efficiency. Put them together though and you get vV02max. Line up a group of 5k running participants from high to low vV02max and you have a fairly acurate predictor of the finish order. I am very interested if this is equally true in rowing I bet it is but admitedly this could be a waste of time.

So the Tabata is covering my V02max improvement hopefully better than rowing long distances could, the strength training is hopfully helping the efficiency of my stroke, but I also need technique work to help my efficiency. I am trying to use my warm up and cool downs to improve technique but I just don't know enough about rowing technique to evaluate if I am truly impoving.

Is there some combination of measures that I can use to see if my stroke efficiency is truly improving, and is there anyway to ascertain how much of that efficiency improvement is coming from strength training vs technical improvements.

If the experts on this board have some advice I would truly appreciate.

I thought a Tabata Protocol suggested 8 sets which would require 4 minutes of actual hard rowing not 2 minutes.
Art

ArtV wrote:

I thought a Tabata Protocol suggested 8 sets which would require 4 minutes of actual hard rowing not 2 minutes.
Art

If you do a set of 8 according to the Tabata Protocol, you should end up with 2 mins 40 seconds of actual hard rowing and 70 seconds of "rest", although the whole workout would be 3 minutes 50 seconds.

Sir,

you must be one of those incredibly gifted, genetically endowed individuals for whom recovery/rest is never needed. I can't imagine how good you would be if you did half the volume, quit the cross fit shit, did a sensible x1 per week HIT strength workout, and used the Tabata for its intended purpose. You think I'm kidding? Less is more - less is more.

tony

I know almost nothing about the Tabata protocol, but I get the impression that if you do it 'all out' you're doing it wrong. PPOnline (http://www.pponline.co.uk/encyc/0145.htm) point out that the research Tabata did compared an effort equivalent to 170% of VO2 max to a differently-configured effort of 200% of VO2 max. If you're going all out then it seems you would be closer to the 200% than 170%, and therefore using at least some element of the inferior program.

Good luck with it anyway!