Concept2 Forum

I'm really confused. I noticed somebody on the FB group rowed a 2:00/500m at 18spm. I don't know how you can row that fast at that low spm. For me to get near a 2:00 I have to row at about 28-30 spm. Which I can't do for very long.

Does this have something to do with drag force? (DF confuses me too.) I had my damper on 3 and noted my DF was about 94. So I set it to 4 1/2 and my df is 115. If I increase my DF will that increase my speed so that I can slow the spm?

Thanks,
Joe

That's only 202.5 watts. At 18 spm that would be 11.3 watt-minutes of work done per stroke. A strong stroke, but not unusually so. No problem for the big guys in the 20-50 yr range.

B.

JoeCPA wrote:I'm really confused. I noticed somebody on the FB group rowed a 2:00/500m at 18spm. I don't know how you can row that fast at that low spm. For me to get near a 2:00 I have to row at about 28-30 spm. Which I can't do for very long.
Does this have something to do with drag force? (DF confuses me too.) I had my damper on 3 and noted my DF was about 94. So I set it to 4 1/2 and my df is 115. If I increase my DF will that increase my speed so that I can slow the spm?
Joe

No need to be confused Joe. Strong but not over the top - there are people able to pull sub 1:30 for 2 minutes at sr 18 - the just have a stronger stroke and are stronger and fitter than those who can't.
There is a relationship between DF (forget about damper settings) and SPM depending on length of piece and desired training effect. The ideal DF will also vary from person to person and we all have a sweet spot mostly between 110 and 140. In general if you are doing a short sprint at a faster stroke rate then you can have a higher DF than if you are doing a longer piece at slower rate. Your speed is related to the watts/stroke (ie power) and number of strokes (rate).
You train to improve both your fitness (ability to hold a pace) and your power per stroke to get faster.
There are heaps of threads talking about drag factor on this thread and elsewhere worth reading.
Welcome to the mysterious world of the erg!!

Joe, I do 20r, 2:00m pace 5k's as a pretty standard workout and have done 15k at a 20r, 2:00 pace ( which was extremely difficult). And I'm nothing out of the ordinary; 58 yr old 165 lbs.I can generally handle 10 watts/stroke. Not a stretch for a younger bigger guy to go 11 watts/ stroke. What are your specifics as far as age, weight, height, etc? I also row at a low drag factor of 102 (roughly a 3- 3 1/2 damper). The idea of the low rate stuff is to allow you the time during the recovery to get a perfect set up at the catch and really focus on a strong powerful leg drive. Most of the guys that post here can do legs only at well under 2:30 pace, probably closer to 2:00m. Let us know your specifics so we have some reference as to your listed PB's.

An increase of damper opening (higher number damper setting or pointer moving toward ceiling in the case of some older model C2s with unmarked housings) admits more air to the flywheel/fan. More air for the fan to displace means a higher rate of deceleration (decay of rpm) following completion of drive than the rate of wheel deceleration with lower damper settings and less air to churn. The work done to the flywheel is measured between peak rpm on the current stroke and the lowest rpm registered after the completion of the previous (at the catch, at which time deceleration is halted and the wheel is accelerated once more by the drive phase of the new stroke).

As a general rule, optimizing the separation of peaks and valleys of rotational velocity and thereby maximizing the amount of work registered by the flywheel sensors demands that relatively high stroke rates accompany high damper settings/drag factors and that relatively low stroke rates are optimal with lower DFs (wheel has more time to slow down during a stroke with a recovery of greater duration. It is a temptation to reduce work per stroke by using high stroke rates (27 and above) and low handle force with very modest DFs. This is what is sometimes called "tapping" the wheel. The best analogy is a low bike gearing. The pedal stroke is high cadence and low torque; the product is a very modest rollout at the tire circumference (equates to distance per stroke). Long strokes with fast leg extension and high drive (handle) speed combined with unhurried recoveries produce respectively high peaks of acceleration, low valleys of deceleration, and optimum distance per stroke.

There is no free lunch to be had from the manipulation of drag factor. However, you may find that for <500m, bumping the DF factor up a bit gives better pace with rates above 30spm than with your lower, workaday, mid/long distance rate. This special case requires energy input sustainable only for brief periods of time and does not contradict the general rule governing economical energy deployment with regard to the erging stroke.

Jack

I experimented with a low pull limited to 20 spm just yesterday, and I managed 1:41, so that's just about under 17 watts/spm. It was bloody hard. I guess at 18 spm my maximal effort would probably be the same watts/spm level, so 1:45. I think had I not already just rowed 15k, I might have been able to nudge a couple more clicks out of it. I'm weighing about 180-182 pounds right now, am 6'2 and I'm 30, and my technique is good; I just really, really lack basic fitness, especially compared with some of the regulars here.

There was a c2ctc challenge a couple of years ago where people rowed for 2 minutes at 20 spm. The winner was Jens Raab, who managed 1:27.7 for the 2 minutes, which is almost 26 watts/spm.

For me to get near a 2:00 I have to row at about 28-30 spm. Which I can't do for very long.

Same as everyone when we first go afloat. Which is why we got the thing: to learn to row with style, then to row a lot and in due time maybe get fit. Style is essential, without it you don't even know which way the boat will go, let alone how fast.

We all have different potential. This depends on height, width, sex and age. From your height in meters you can calculate a theoretical "fit weight" M, using M=23H². A good endurance training power output might then be between 1.5 and 2 M, expressed in Watts.

If you're already skinny by modern standards, just use your kg weight x 2 in Watts: if 75 kg, train at up to 150W, rate 20-22 as to height. Or your weight in pounds and call it Watts. No unfit beginner needs to train harder than that.

At the moment if you can pull 2:00/500 (200W) at rating 28-30 for two minutes, that's a 7W stroke. Which more or less is what I do, and very good indeed, so stop complaining. Remember to warm up slowly and well, otherwise you'll feel terrible after 1-2 minutes.

JoeCPA wrote:I'm really confused. I noticed somebody on the FB group rowed a 2:00/500m at 18spm. I don't know how you can row that fast at that low spm. For me to get near a 2:00 I have to row at about 28-30 spm. Which I can't do for very long.

Does this have something to do with drag force? (DF confuses me too.) I had my damper on 3 and noted my DF was about 94. So I set it to 4 1/2 and my df is 115. If I increase my DF will that increase my speed so that I can slow the spm?

Thanks,
Joe

Its pretty, simple, Usain bolt can run the 100 meter in 9.6 we can,t. Its a matter of talent mostly. 2.00 rate 18 is not fast though. Roughly speaking can a 6.40 2k rower do that on longer sessions.
Fast rowers, 6 flat go a lot faster abyou can guess.

A knows session is 30/20 rate 20 for half a hour. Again roughly, we can hold 70 % of our 2k power on this.

It may be that your technique needs to be looked at to make sure you are using your legs all the way. Many have posted a video and gotten critique. I think there is instructions on how to do this in the general section. Might be worth the risk!

I think my technique is probably lacking. My legs don't feel it on the drive. I've chalked that up to be fairly short (5'6" or 1.6 meters). And I'm out of shape at 250lb (113Kg).

I will look into posting a video and get some feedback.

Thanks,
Joe

The good news is that you are on the erg and enthused about working off those extra lbs. I wouldn't kill yourself in these early stages worrying about speed and times. Work in technique, get those legs into it, manage your effort so you can stay I the thing for 20-30 minutes a crack and eat right. It won't be long until your perceptions about 2:00 and 18-20 SPM are different.