Concept2 Forum

Hi guys, I would appreciate some training advice as I do seem to have hit a plateau. I'm 54 5'9 and a light lightweight at 66kg, I've been training on the erg the last 2yrs and doing some mountain biking. In the last year I've upped the distances and reg row 5k on work days first thing typically at 2:02-2:05 pace and 2 days maybe do 10k/60min at 2:04-2:08 pace. I'm humbled by the times you guys post my best times in the last 12m are 2k 7:38, 5k 19.56 30min 7395 10k 40:56.3 60min 14541 and HM 1:29:13.8. I perhaps have not done enough speed work to get my 2k better but am I expecting too much? This am I did 4*1000 1:54.6,1:53.5, 1:56.5, 1:56.7 on 2 min rest max HR was only 154 after first but 160 after the 4th.I increased drag to 118for this session (mostly I row with it at 108) as I find it tricky to row well faster than 26spm for any sustained time and in fact the fastest today was at 25spm and the slower at 23. Perhaps its more speedwork and practice but is it going to be possible to get down to a sub 7 2k weighing 66kg? that would be 4.6w/kg! Does that suggest I need to build muscle and if so what would you recommend? Maybe I should just target 7:30 and enjoy getting fitter for a sub 3hr marathon later in the year.
I would value your collected wisdom.

You will get much more credible advice in a moment or two from some of the ballers, but what it looks like to me is your are in the training band that causes a plateu. That 80-80% space that isnt hard enough to get you faster, but is hard enough to get you tired. I also mtn bike and if you do it in mountains like I do, it is also a hard workout that affects my interval days - I had to watch that leading up to wanting to do a PB. I had a nice jump in my 2k time by forcing myself to go slower and longer on 3 rows a week and then short and less short intervals as hard as can on the other 2 days, always trying to finish. 1 day I would do the type of row you do 2:02 - 2:04, but for 30 minutes at rate 20 or so. You might look at the Pete plan for ideas for intervals.

You lack power and speed. With your 66 you are very light, but the wr lightweights is 5.56, but that is done at rate 40 idh, search google for the vid. You should learn to rate a lot higher. Doing 1 min on/off can help. To make your stroke stronger, doing low rate work helps. Rating 18/20. But nummer one will be rate, for a small light guy you move way to slow, your main improvements can come from there.

Heartwood, I'm watching this thread with great interest. Similar, 5'9", only 62kg, 59yo. Based on readings not going to pop any records! Ultramarathoner & triathlete, so conditioning & aerobic base is decent. Just wanted more core & upper body work to compliment the other activities. So far (About one month in) 2k is 8:56 ; 5k is 23:20 & 30 minutes is 6424 meters, embarrassing compared to pure rowers.
Learning much from these boards & video's regarding technique / form / etc. Hope to improve but admittedly rowing is more complimentary workout than primary. Agree that making your hard days shorter/harder & improving technique is your path over the plateau. Good rowing & luck.

Just a hunch here. What is your damper setting (or better, what is the drag factor)? It is harder to increase the rate and stil pull a full length stroke if the damper setting is to high.

Bob S.

Thanks for the replies:
HJS I think you're right I need to gain strength by doing some faster rate stuff maybe 1min on 1 min off would be a good start. I've done plenty of long rows at 18-20spm thats a comfortable zone, but this endurance building work seems not really to have helped in improving my 2k times.

Bob S I use DF 108 for most of my rows I have reduced this in the last 3m from 118 to try and help with rating up.

Steve I started having been pretty sedentery for the last 15yrs(kids) but rapidly improved doing mainly 2-3k rows in the first year.

G-dub I do find it difficult to keep the pace way down on the longer rows I suspect I should be doing the 10k /60min at 2:08-2:12 not 2:04-2:06

heartwood wrote:Thanks for the replies:
HJS I think you're right I need to gain strength by doing some faster rate stuff maybe 1min on 1 min off would be a good start. I've done plenty of long rows at 18-20spm thats a comfortable zone, but this endurance building work seems not really to have helped in improving my 2k times.

Bob S I use DF 108 for most of my rows I have reduced this in the last 3m from 118 to try and help with rating up.

Steve I started having been pretty sedentery for the last 15yrs(kids) but rapidly improved doing mainly 2-3k rows in the first year.

G-dub I do find it difficult to keep the pace way down on the longer rows I suspect I should be doing the 10k /60min at 2:08-2:12 not 2:04-2:06

The lower rate work should not be comfortable, not racing but stillnit has to feel like realmwork. Doing this for a while often helps.

heartwood wrote: Bob S I use DF 108 for most of my rows I have reduced this in the last 3m from 118 to try and help with rating up.

Obviously, my hunch was far off track. I was trying to figure out why you have trouble rating over 25spm. Usually it is the other way around.

Bob S.

I was better able to row the longer rows "easier" after I loaded hard intervals into the mix and wanted to get to a pace that was indicative of the type of time I wanted to get in the 2K. After doing those, I wasn't as keen the next day to then turn around and blast out an 8K at threshold pace! I also covered the monitor sometimes so I was pacing to heart rate and how my breathing was rather than staring at a pace that drove me nuts. I really do believe meeping the intensity down on the longer rows helped me make the higher intensity sessions much more productive toward a better time.

You'll get many different (excellent!) opinions from Henry, Jim and the rest. I'll throw mine in. I race as a LWT, although considerably heavier than you (currently 162 lbs). I believe in a periodized approach ( I'm a bit of a loner in this regard). During the off season I do lots of long rows of 15k at a 20r, around 2:05 to 2:10 pace. These are not particularly easy rows, and by the end of a 4-6 week cycle I'm doing at least one of these at a 2:00m pace. My target is to build to 10 watts/ stroke. This coming season I'm shooting for 11 w/s. I don't mix in any intervals during this period....I can't recover day to day from the long hard stuff if I'm doing fast intervals. I run a light damper, 102df. Anything heavier I feel like I'm in mud. After I've had a solid six weeks or so I'll go to a "polarized" approach. Long rows are HR capped at 75% of max, for me that works out to around 2:10 pace. Free rate, I usually settle in at 24spm. These rows feel relatively easy, maybe a better word is manageable. I do these 3-4 days a week, the other days are speed work. At the recommendations of a very talented friend I started doing either 30/30 or 60/60 workouts, the work piece is 30 or 60 seconds at race pace, the rest in between is moderate wattage (around 150w for me). I do twenty 30's or ten 60's. My goal is to "rate up" and hold the wattage. So at a 30r I'm targeting 300w+ which puts me in 7 minute range. My other favorite work out during race season (now!) is a 1300m at race pace with no sprint. These are less demanding than a full 2k and give me a good idea of how to pace myself.

If you talk with any of the truly fast guys; the hammer winners and champions, you'll find they put in a mind numbing volume of meters. Like 5-8 million a year for a lot of these guys. Last year I did about 3 million, this year I'm targeting 5. Not saying you can't row very solid times at lower volumes, but those last three or four seconds are hard to get!

Good luck and keep us posted.

Edward many thanks for this thoughtful response. Looking at my stats I'm doing my longer rows 5k -60min in the 8.8-9.1 w/stroke range. What I've yet to master is to keep this power/stroke when rating at 28spm+ for a whole 2k. Perhaps I submit to my perceived level of discomfort too soon I've noted since I started HR monitoring on these higher intensity rows I'm wanting to stop before my HR hits 160. Having said that I've not seen it faster than 165 ever -and that was at the end of a HM row.

I will try these 30/30 and 60/60's and also do some 1300's as 2k try outs at 1:53/4 pace in the coming weeks.

If I cap HR to 75% of say 166 this is going to be a very light workload probably around 2:15-20, I'm doing that as warm up pace for 10min prior to shorter pieces but I'm unsure if it would really help doing 15 k at that pace.

Looking ahead I was thinking about a full marathon at 2:08 pace to get sub 3 hrs I know I couldn't do that now but was going to see how I got on doing some 25k rows at 2:10-12 pace, plus I will need some brief hydration stops. I didnt drink in my HM 1:29.13 but clearly will need to for longer distances.

Wow you do some metres I'm at 1.25 million this season.

Inspiring to read your posts, I hope all goes to plan for you in the CRASH-B's

IMO you can do pretty well with 40-50km a week with maybe some longer ones.
When looking at HR bands and %% best to sort out your Heart Rate reserve and take % from that.
Most training plans and the like use % of HRR as their caps.
The HHR is MaxHR (est from a flat out significant piece of hard intervals or the like) - Resting HR (measured at real lying down first in the morning rest)

Say MHR is 170 and RHR is 50 then HRR = 120. If you are looking for 80% cap then that is 80% of 120 (96) + 50 = 146

Along the lines of HR. I use it strictly on long, capped rows. I rarely use HR for a hard piece, never for a short hard piece. The few times I've done it I've been hammering real close to max the whole way.

Doing 2:15 for a long piece should feel easy. It's what allows you to do 15k's day after day or use a 15k as a recovery piece supplementing your intervals. Also, re-read my post to make sure you grasped what I was saying.... when I'm in a base building phase I work in one or two hard 15k's each week, down around 2:00 pace at a 20r. For me, a very hard effort that requires a lot of focus.

A properly done 2k at a race or for a PR should have you feeling like you can't finish it and you really feel as if you want to quit.It's going to be extremely uncomfortable. For me the third 500m is the worst; before that I'm okay, and with 500m to go it's almost over. I really like the 1300's as a predictor; not nearly as intimidating as a full 2k; and by the end you'll have a feel for where you're at. You'll know if it was so hard there is know way you could do a full 2k at that pace. Or if you felt like a 2k would have been do-able.

And by all means experiment. Listen to everybody. Lindsay is correct, lots of people thrive on 40-50k weeks. Jim (cyclingman) laid down times that ranked him #1 on relatively low volume, blisteringly hard weeks. Program your work outs for 6 to 8 week blocks and see what you thrive on.

It's all a grand experiment!

(note: 1:29 is a pretty solid HM!)

heartwood wrote:
This a.m. I did 4*1000 1:54.6,1:53.5, 1:56.5, 1:56.7 on 2 min rest max HR 154 > 160 after the 4th. drag to 118. 25spm and 23.

Congrats on your ½M, at below 90' (almost 170 W) looks very fast, especially at 66 kg. You're on the first page of the 50-60 LW ½M logbook.

The above numbers on 4x1k say you are pulling a very hefty stroke, almost 10 W'. To pull a 300W 2k with that stroke would need 30 spm, which is decidedly low for someone your size. You may be better off at 35 x 8.5 W'. Relying on strength is a splendid idea once or twice, but more than 200 in a hurry?

You say you have problems going over 26 in any case. This is technical; clearly you want to pull long strokes to get the 10W', but too long can cause a waste of time at the finish where we are no longer using the legs but the far weaker arms. Also, at the higher rating, a slightly higher drag can help too by shortening the slack at the catch.

4x1k is said to be a good indicator for 2k, though just as nasty to do. The problem with a 2k is that it's much nearer our peak power than the long pieces. For a 7' 2k, 300W cruising and more at the end when we want to harden up. So rather than deriving a 2k pace from a 4x1k that's devastating, a single 500 can give you a better idea of what you can do in the 2k. You have plenty of endurance. 500 is a lousy guide for the big strong weighlifters who then in a 2k collapse at 1200m after doing the first 500 at 1:20s, but very good if we have endurance and plenty of data from the longer pieces. A shorter piece gives you data both sides of the 2k, allowing interpolation rather than just extrapolation.

FWIW my W levels are 288 (½k), 193 (2k) 130 (½M), with ratios both 67%. To do a 300W 2k, you'd need to be over well 400W in the 500 (1:35).

NB there is another theory of training beyond doing everything at race pace (which causes plateaux): polarization. Either a lot faster than race pace, or a lot slower, but always using the stroke you intend to race with. Middling speeds are useless, too slow for speed and too fast for endurance. This ties as you know with Lactate theory and tapering before races. As for ratings, see Xeno's final in Atlanta. Low rating is fine for training but a killer in racing.

Edward thank you again I'm beginning to realise to really improve I have got to plan ahead with my training, I think I will feel a bit guilty doing hour row ar 2:15 but after this morning's intervals I beginning to understand. I do need to build some mental toughness too, it's when you're body says stop before you're halfway and that 3rd 500 that's so so hard, when the end is in sight somehow one can keep going.

Jamesg thank you, I think you are right re adapting my stroke.

So I did 10 1min/1min light the fastest were the first and last at 1:51.1 at 27 and 26 spm and the slowest the 3rd(when I thought I have to slow these down or I'll never complete the 10) at 1:54.9 and 23spm which was also the most powerful hitting 10w/s. I think I have been trying to pull as hard and complete strokes as I do at 19-23spm at faster rates and just crumbling. Food for thought.

I haven't tried for a while but I don't think I can pull 1:35 even once let alone for 500! low 1:40's yes. I can see that a 7' 2k will be unrealistic and I think set my sights on 7' 20.

Well I will plan out 2 HIT sessions/week and some long recovery rows over the next month and see how I get on.