Newb Q - No resistance in first part of stroke

[ex99125b]

I am attempting to add rowing to my workout at the gym. I have been rowing on the C2 for a couple of weeks, mostly just doing 1 or 2k but never paying attention to my stroke rate, which apparently must have been pretty high.
So, last night, taking some welcome advice from folks here, I did 20 minutes with the hopes of rowing 5K while attempting to keep my strokes to <25. I had the damper lever set to 5. I noticed that there was virtually zero resistance in the first part of my stroke, so my legs were doing almost nothing. The resistance didnt seem to catch until later, when my arms were doing the work.
I finished the 20 minutes with only 3142 meters at a 3:24/500m rate, but i did manage to keep my stroke rate to 24 s/min.
Surely I'm doing something wrong?
What determines how far the bars get pulled back before the resistance "catches"? me, or the machine?
I tried increasing the speed/power of the pull back once it caught, but that didnt seem to effect the next stroke.

Any advice?

[DanielJ]

Make the resistance. You can still push hard with the quads and accelerate through the drive; just give yourself more time in the recovery phase when working at lower SPM. You can row strapless to encourage this.

[hjs]

I am attempting to add rowing to my workout at the gym. I have been rowing on the C2 for a couple of weeks, mostly just doing 1 or 2k but never paying attention to my stroke rate, which apparently must have been pretty high.
So, last night, taking some welcome advice from folks here, I did 20 minutes with the hopes of rowing 5K while attempting to keep my strokes to <25. I had the damper lever set to 5. I noticed that there was virtually zero resistance in the first part of my stroke, so my legs were doing almost nothing. The resistance didnt seem to catch until later, when my arms were doing the work.
I finished the 20 minutes with only 3142 meters at a 3:24/500m rate, but i did manage to keep my stroke rate to 24 s/min.
Surely I'm doing something wrong?
What determines how far the bars get pulled back before the resistance "catches"? me, or the machine?
I tried increasing the speed/power of the pull back once it caught, but that didnt seem to effect the next stroke.

Any advice?

Male female stats ?

At those paces the stroke is so soft you simply are moving no air. To catch the flywheel you have to push much more with the legs. You get the resistance you put in yourself.

Re setting, if you row in a gym ot can be the machine is dusty, that makes the drag very low. Find out whst dragfactor the machine has. Should be roughly between 100 and 200, lowest and highest setting.
But even on a very low drag 3.24 is very very easy.

[ex99125b]

Daniel,
Hey, thanks for the quick reply!
I understand what you are saying. I tried being more explosive with my legs (while slowing my recovery). I tried being more explosive with my arms once I felt the "catch". I tried doing both at once. The 500m rate didnt seem to budge much. Argh.

So, I take your answer to mean, the point at which I feel resistance is entirely up to how much resistance I create?
And the amount of resistance I create is up to the amount of power I put into the stroke when I am feeling no resistance from the flywheel?

[ex99125b]

hjs,
Thanks for your response.
male, 57, 230lbs 6'2", fit.

I will check the drag factor during fri, workout.
Daniel and you said the same thing. I guess I need to find some power in the drive, even if it feels like I am not pulling against anything...practice

[DanielJ]

The point at which I feel resistance is entirely up to how much resistance I create?

Indeed. Actually my word "make" is a bit off. But the drive phase spins the flywheel against the resistance of air. There's a cubic relationship between the power required to overcome this "drag", and the speed. (It's like if put your hand out of the window when you're driving at 30 mph, and then again at 60, the force felt pushing your hand back isn't doubled; it's actually now eight times higher. The same goes for when you put your hand in a tub of water, move your hand against the water, and then increase the speed.)

So it's up to you to push with your legs (using your quads), while keeping your back sturdy at that beginning part of the drive. Even at these low SPMs (maybe even "especially" at these low SPMs), the effort with the quads, to rip the handle back and get the flywheel spinning, should be an earnest one.

[jamesg]

20 minutes with only 3142 meters at a 3:24/500m rate

The work in your stroke is only about 2 Watt minutes (50W at rate 25).

This means your strokes are very short; you are not actually rowing. Rowing involves the legs more than anything else, that's where the big muscles are and it's what the slide is for.

In a full length stroke we come forward slowly to get our hands near the chain guard, but then move fast with the legs and slide, to catch up soon with the flywheel. Then swing the trunk, and arms last. At the first stroke, the flywheel is dead so the pull starts immediately; after that there is some slack.

At height 6'2, the handle can travel almost 150 cm, 5 feet.

All this is done by using the hands, swing, slide sequence during recovery. This gets us to the right posture, well forward, for a fast long stroke.

To force yourself into the recovery sequence, try the backstop drill:
Set the PM to Watts.
Then, sitting upright, pull arms only at about 60 spm: you should see 60 Watt
After a minute or so, to hands only add some swing: rating 40, 80 W.
Again after a minute or two, start to add slide, but only after the swing forward. The rate will drop to 20, and the power increase to at least 140W.

Here you can see erging and sculling. All the details of posture, sequence etc are important:
http://www.concept2.com/indoor-rowers/t ... que-videos
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pf84O5cTWY4

[ex99125b]

Thanks Daniel and James,
Thank you both.
I thought my stroke was proper. Ha!
I will re-eval friday.

[hjs]

hjs,
Thanks for your response.
male, 57, 230lbs 6'2", fit.

I will check the drag factor during fri, workout.
Daniel and you said the same thing. I guess I need to find some power in the drive, even if it feels like I am not pulling against anything...practice

With these stats its impressive to treat the erg that tender You really have to pull very carefully to keep the pace that easy. Just walking would be more effort.
Like james says, the handle should travel at least 1.50, from start to backstop and during that drive the speed should increese, not stay constant . Do that and you put a lot more effort. Its very easy to work hard on an erg. Anybody can be spend in 60 seconds, if you use the machine.

[ex99125b]

Thanks,
I could swear i am stroking correctly. I will check the drag factor later. I should probably post a video at some point. I will also attempt a more explosive drive and see if i can create at least some resistance.

[jackarabit]

How would the OP describe the level of exertion reached in your 20' distance test? Were you working hard? Were you sweating? Breathing thru mouth? At the 20' mark, did you feel you could maintain the level of effort 1) an additional 20'? 2) less than 10'? 3) less than 2'?

I raise these questions because an inconvenient truth of erging performance is that many neophytes produce lots of watts and pace with execrable form. This IS the point at which a video posted to u-tube and linked on the forum will allow technique deficiencies to be identified and coaching advice dispensed. However, in my opinion, it is unlikely that a fit male of your age and build cannot do a bit more and faster than you're doing on spit and grit alone. Avoid injury to untested muscle and ligaments but get a realistic baseline on what you're capable of by simply doing all you're capable of. And don't be discouraged. Most of us stumble around in a dark room looking for the light switch? Jack

[ex99125b]

Jack,
Thanks, I would say that it was almost no exertion. I probably could have gone on for another 20 except that I had already done 45 minutes of hard cardio. As I mentioned in my post, I felt no resistance until I was all the way back and started to pull. I have watched quite a few of the proper technique videos and I dont feel like I am that far off. I am going to workout this after noon and will concentrate on more explosive leg drive to get at least some resistance. I will also check the drag factor, it is possible that the gym doesnt clean its machines and I am getting no air. I would really appreciate a video review of my stroke if possible. I can probably link to a Vimeo clip this weekend, unless there is a better way/place that this forum uses (I'm totally new).
thanks for your response.
Jim

[dblinden]

Jim - With the drag factor turned to lowest setting, it is still possible to produce substantial resistance and high pace, certainly more than you are experiencing. It must be related to technique. You'll feel it once you get it.
Dennis L

PS: Jack - How do you have time to get online with all the meters you are doing this month?

[ex99125b]

dennis,
yeah.
thats what Im a'fearin

[jackarabit]

(@Dennis: I gapped off questionable sanity today and now attempting to bridge up to certifiable derangement. Knitters doing great in virtual teams under 20 members. Been checking Rowbot Atlanta. Go Rowbots!)

I hear ya, Jim. Maybe there is something wrong with that gym erg? Are your friends pulling 2' splits on it? Jack