Concept2 Forum

I've was a runner of years and then moved to the NorthEast and for the past 8 years or so have mainly done Lifecycle and Elliptical training.

I joined our corporate fitness center and they have concept2 Model Cs with PM2 Monitors.

I've been rowing 3 days a week for 60 minutes. and my HR is only getting to the 130 range (HR monitor). This is with the damper in the 120 range. I average around 2:15/500 meters for this time. I've always been somewhat adverse to intervals. I'm 48 and 6'5"

So what is the technique to decrease my 500 m time? It seems as hard as I try I can't get below 2:00/500 m for any period. Is it a matter of doing intervals to increase my leg speed and also get my HR in the 80-85% range? I have the DVD and it is not clear what I need to do.

It seems being tall does have some effect on actual speed/turnover rate. Or is it in my head?

Jim

Yes, being tall is a big advantage, as you get much more distance per stroke. For any given speed, you won't need to take as many strokes in each minute.

What distances are you aiming for?

When you go faster, your heart rate will be higher. For a given pace, your heart rate will become lower, over time. However it will also respond more quickly. A sign of fitness is that your heart rate does respond more quickly, and that you'll be able to maintain a higher heart rate for much longer.

A heart rate of 130 is fine for building low level endurance, depending on your range. To go faster though, it would be good to gradually raise that up higher, perhaps at least in the 140 to 150 range. Make sure to do this gradually so you are assured of being able to do this and recovering well.

OK but how do I increase speed for 500M? It seems I can't get my leg turnover rate higher. Do I set the damper lower and do intervals to develop my fast twitch muscles? My goal here is to stay in shape/ lose a few pounds but also have days where I really get my HR up.

I'm not so worried about HR recovery I've been running/exercising for years. Even now I find my HR recovers to normal every morning. I started on the rower since I can't seem to get my HR above 70% of max on the lifecyle of elliptical without setting the resistance really high. And I wanted to do something about my upper body.

At the beginning you're better off doing the 60 minutes than switching to intervals. The 60 minutes are the most important for developing your system to the exercise.

At first, your muscles are not used to the rowing, as this takes different muscles than with running. It takes time to develop the muscles. In the meantime you won't be able to get your heart rate as high.

If you keep bringing down your pace and increase your distance for the hour, this will help to continue your development. As you get used to the exercise, you'll be able to go faster, and will develop the capacity for your heart rate to go higher.

It sounds like you are reasonably fit and pretty big, so I'm guessing you only need to work on your technique.

Try this link: http://www.concept2.com/us/training/tools/howtorow.asp

Notice the guy rowing in the corner... on the drive he goes legs, back, arms and on the recovery he goes arms, back, legs. On the drive there is a little overlap between legs and back and there is a little overlap between back and arms, but none between legs and arms. There is another video of him rowing somewhere but I don't know where it is.

If possible find someone who rows and ask them to look at your technique.

jliddil wrote:OK but how do I increase speed for 500M?

You could try to shorten the stroke a bit, that will get your spm up a bit. And generally it's just the more you do it the better it becomes and the easier to get the spm up.

I pretty much have the technique down as there is a mirror by the machines and I've watched the video a few times. So maybe it is a matter of training my muscles to work faster. It just seems I can't push back any faster than I am now.

BTW what is LP (lowest pull) mean? I couldn't find it in the FAQ.

Rowing an hour 3x a week is great training, so keep that up.

The key detail about your training that you have not told us is your stroke rate. It is displayed in the upper right corner (maybe depending on which screen in the display you are using). For a 2:15 pace, a SR of 22 would be good target, since that is 10 meters per stroke.

It is reasonable to have your stroke rate increase as you go "faster" ie row with a lower pace. But that should not be the primary method or reason to go faster. Instead, you need to focus on pulling "harder". Actual drive time doesn't vary that much, so the difference is in the power (displayed as watts) generated for each stroke.

You can row a 2:00 pace already. Why can't you hold that for an hour? Unless your stroke rate is off the charts for the 2:00 pace (I would row 2:00 pace at SR 25 and a 2:15 pace at SR 22), the answer to working harder and rowing faster may be right in front of you: row faster and work harder. So do your next hour at 2:12 pace; then try 2:10. At some point you will clearly begin to hit a wall and find your HR and effort go up considerably.

jliddil,

When you are pulling at 2:15/500, what is your stroke rate?

LP = Low Pull = the fastest instantaneous split you can achieve for just one pull. Many people say it is meaningless and as it relates to 2K time it probably is.

Rich

I'm doing 30-33 SPM

jliddil wrote:I'm doing 30-33 SPM

So I think that is pretty clearly the answer. I am surprised that doesn't get your HR up, but I guess that is individual. I would suggest reducing your SR considerably, maybe first trying to get it down to the mids 20's, and do this while maintaining your 2:15 pace, by "pulling harder" each stroke that you take.

I am assuming you are strapped in right now. Unstrapping your feet and rowing strapless will almost certainly drop your SR down (I can row strapless at 30, but it gets to be a real challenge). Getting your technique set rowing strapless should really help move you forward.

Yea I had a full blown stress test when about 25 years ago and I pretty much never got my heart rate to blow before I couldn't handle the speed of the treadmill. I'd have to look at the record but my VO2max came back pretty high.

When you say pull hard do you mean using my legs and back to pull back harder? Isn't the force required to pull back at a given damper setting constant?

How does a lower SPM minute rate equate to the same speed over a given distance? Or is this analogous to having your oars deeper and pulling more water.

I guess I should read up on the theory a bit.

jliddil wrote:Yea I had a full blown stress test when about 25 years ago and I pretty much never got my heart rate to blow before I couldn't handle the speed of the treadmill. I'd have to look at the record but my VO2max came back pretty high.

When you say pull hard do you mean using my legs and back to pull back harder? Isn't the force required to pull back at a given damper setting constant?

How does a lower SPM minute rate equate to the same speed over a given distance? Or is this analogous to having your oars deeper and pulling more water.

I guess I should read up on the theory a bit. :D

Firstly, I am no expert having not completed my first million M. But at 30+SPM @ 2:15, you are not getting the sort of power into your stroke that a person of your stature can achieve. Several people on this and the UK Forum have thought they rowed like the video to get a shock when advised by an experienced rower who points out their faults.

The resistance on a C2 is dependant on how hard you pull. The faster it is going the harder it is to accelerate it more.

The key to a powerful stroke is driving hard with the legs, I have seen it quoted that they provide 70% of the power. So you need to drive down hard on each stroke almost like a horizontal squat. The other important point is that all the leg power goes to drive the flywheel. To do this, you need to keep your arms straight for all but the end of the drive. The arms at the early part of the drive are mere hooks. If you try and haul with your arms at the start of the stroke, as they are weaker than your legs, the excess power will be lost straightening the arms as the arms and legs work against each other. In addition, your back must remain strong otherwise part of the drive is lost bending the back.

Rowing is unusual in that it requires bursts of effort with gaps between. So the effort on the drive is more akin to a light resistance machine than other endurance training. For longer rows, the drive should be approx. twice as long as the "recovery". So after getting the arms back straight, slow the lean and leg compression to recover for the next stroke. As suggested by others much better qualified than I above, slowing the rating and upping the power per stroke is the way to go.

Strapless rowing is a good exercise. If the legs do not finish their drive before the arms, you will drift back off the footplate, so it gives good feedback on this aspect of the stroke. The hands away should provide the momentum with the handle to pull you slowly up the slide and you should not be using the straps to get you back up.

Final point, if you estimated your max heart rate from a formula, it may be 30 or so out from reality. Many taller fit people have a lower maximum heart rate (compensated by a larger stroke volume). So you may need to do a step test or similar to establish what your maximum is.

Sorry this is so long a post, hope it helps.

Happy erging

Iain

For some reason if you take a bunch of total beginners to the gym roughly half will 'get' the rowing stroke at a fundamental level.
Regardless of age or strength or fitness or any other failings of skill and flexibility they will naturally complete the stroke by finishing with the legs lay flat (or nearly) whilst the arms complete the stroke against this solid base.
If you watch the seat it moves back in the leg extension part of the drive and then pauses. This pause is necessary because when the legs are almost completely finished the arms are only just beginning to draw-in towards the chest. If you allow the legs to bend at this point then you will pull yourself onto the handle rather than the handle into the chest.

The other half of our beginners suffer from this ruinous tendency and seem to see rowing as a 'circular' action - as soon as the legs are straight they bend them again and they are off down the slide. It is impossible to really generate any continual acceleration of the flywheel with this method and it is therefore impossible to get sufficient work into the erg to raise the HR as another exercise would.

At your height 33 spm would be a pretty fast rate for a 2K so as a rate for an hour and coupled with the lack of exhaustion I am prepared to say I am 100% certain this is your problem.

When the UK site is back up and running go and search the archives for a thread entitled "New dog old tricks" - or possibly "Old dog new tricks" with the author name Hindol Howie.
There is a lot of banter and general mickey-taking (much of it from me) but there is also enough stuff that you should see what I mean.
If the search fails just start a post by copying your original message in the training forum and I will post the link
Regards
Chris

jliddil,

I'd agree with much of what the others have written. Some additional advice:

1) The "speed" clocked by the erg is not a linear function of your stroke rate. At a given drag factor, pushing away harder/faster with the legs on the drive will give a faster pace per 500m. However, if you take more time on the recovery back up the slide, you can keep your stroke rate the same but have a faster pace. Of course, you'll be working harder on each stroke. The other way to increase pace is to use the same amount of effort per stroke, but increase the stroke rate, but at your size you're pretty high on the rate already.

Remember that in a real boat, the recovery time is about twice the drive time. This is because you can let the boat run on the water. On the erg a lot of people end up closer to 1:1, but you don't have to.

2) You say you do 2:15 easily, but have trouble doing 2:00 for a sustained time. There's a lot of space between 2:15 and 2:00! What happens when you do 2:10 for 60 minutes? I'm 40, and 2:20 is my easy warm-up pace, but my best 10k was at 1:57 for about 39 minutes, and I was cooked. I would bet that you'd get to a decent heart rate somewhere in the 2:05 to 2:10 range.