Should I change my training plan?

[ugorakos]

Hi all!

The compatition that I'm preparing will be held 28 Feb. (2k of course)
I've done this program for several weeks:
Mo afternoon weight training, evening 20k easy (2.00-2.15) unrestricted s/m
Tu evening 4x1k5'r or 4x0,75k3'r or 8x0,5k1'30"r (this is the hardest training of the week)
We afternoon weight training, evening 20k easy (2.00-2.15) unrestricted s/m
Th afternoon weight training, evening 30r20
Fr afternoon weight training, evening 20k easy (2.00-2.15) unrestricted s/m
Sat morning 3x1,5k4'r or 2x2k3'r, evening 13k running
Su rest
Aprx: ~90k erg, 4 weight training and 1 running.
I feel I stopped progressing. My question: what should I change? Maybe the 20k trainings are too soft but on that days I'm happy if I finish and I don't feel like pulling harder at all because I know I'll need all my power on the next day. In spite of this should I pull a shorter distance but harder? For example 10-12k with 1.50?
I'm 30, 1.87m/94-97kg

[Cyclingman1]

There are a lot of questions here. How long have you been erging. When did you do 6:11? Most of us make the most progress in the first few months or year after beginning. After that, gains come very slowly.

For someone who does 6:11, rowing 60K a week at 2:00 to 2:15 seems like a giant waste. Also, are you a weightlifter or a rower? I think that your entire program seems odd for someone really wanting to be a fast rower. Rowing 8300+ m for 30 min is dismal for a 6:11 man. You should be approaching 9000m. I'm not even going to suggest a fitness plan here, but I do know that you need to drastically revamp. As far as a Feb 28 deadline, ditch the BS and do some serious speed work and get a lot of rest.

[hjs]

There are a lot of questions here. How long have you been erging. When did you do 6:11? Most of us make the most progress in the first few months or year after beginning. After that, gains come very slowly.

For someone who does 6:11, rowing 60K a week at 2:00 to 2:15 seems like a giant waste. Also, are you a weightlifter or a rower? I think that your entire program seems odd for someone really wanting to be a fast rower. Rowing 8300+ m for 30 min is dismal for a 6:11 man. You should be approaching 9000m. I'm not even going to suggest a fitness plan here, but I do know that you need to drastically revamp. As far as a Feb 28 deadline, ditch the BS and do some serious speed work and get a lot of rest.

That 30 min was rate 20 not free. 9k is not 6.11, for most a lot faster.

The longer rows are fine, but should be a bit faster 1.55/2.00 seems more for you. But those are base building, now you need to focus on race sharpness. Two times a week something like 4x1k on 5 rest. 8x500 rest as you feel like. Between 1 and three. 5x 750 on three orso. The rest of the session not to hard and in the last twee weeks really focussed on recovery.
For a next season really do it differenly. Keep the longer stuff in, but faster and at low rate. And ditch the speedwork at first and do some longer interval work around 5k pace. Plus build further on your strenght.
Building both speed and endurance together will not work after the first stage.

[rhr]

Agree with Henry.

Looking at rowers on the UK forum around the 6:10 / 2k level - they have 30r20 at over 8500m.

Plus your 2x2k at 1:38 is 85% of 2k Watts. The usual workout at that % would be 4x2k on R'5.

So it seems that you could gain a bit of aerobic improvement next season. Your short interval times are excellent so strength is definitely not an issue.

[ugorakos]

Thanks guys the advices.

Cyclingman,

I rowed (only on erg, never on water) 2005-2010 and I pulled 6.27 in 2008 and 6.25 in 2010 (both in race). 2010-2013 I run. Dozens of halfmarathons and 2 marathon but naturally I'm too big to be a really good runner (I only run 1:25 halfmarathon and 3:07 marathon from 60-100k/week) so I decided to go back to the erg. Last year from Jan-Oct I did three times a week the easy 20k trainings, run 30-40k and sometimes rowed a short intervall. Since the middle of october I've been doing the program that I wrote (except for the 30r20. I started pulling 30r20 four weeks ago, so I've rowed it four times only until now. Before that I did some short intervall because I knew nothing about the importance of low rate trainings such as 30r20. This is the reason why my 30r20 isn't good. However, I think 9000m goes more likely with sub 6:00 2k. Maybe I'll be able to reach 8500-8600 until the race. I would be very happy with it).
I rowed the 6.11 2k TT 2 Jan.
My goal is to be as fast in 2k as possible. I'm not a weightlifter and I don't care about my best 5k or 6k.

hjs,

Do you really think I could gain benefit from some longer interval work around 5k pace? I only care 2k. Can slower intervalls help me?

rhr,

What time would be good in 2x2k with 3'r? Does it worth pulling 4x2k or 5x1,5k? I already hate 2x2k and 3x1,5k trainings, so I think I would be very weak in 4x2k or 5x1,5k... I like pulling the 500-1000m intervalls Nevertheless, I could not imagine harder training than 4x1k 5'r.

[ugorakos]

And I broke my 4x750m 3'r PB by 0,5 sec today!
I'm really motivated now!

[rhr]

Your short interval times are very good (500m) and your 4x750m, 4x1k etc are perfectly in line with a projected 6:11 / 2k.

Rowing is a power endurance sport so improving your lactate threshold is important. 5k pace work will help, whilst it is "slower" than 2k you do more volume. Right now I would think your 5k time would be slower than a projected number based on your 2k. Your 1k would probably be slightly faster than projected. You don't like the longer intervals which is precisely why you should be doing them! 500m intervals are much more anaerobic so you will always be good at those, work on your aerobic engine. All next season of course. Do what Henry (hjs) suggests for this race season.

What is a good time for the 2x2k on R'3 - for you - I would think 1:36 / 1:36.5. But doing the 4x2k on R'5 (1:38) would be better .

[Cyclingman1]

I admit that I find it a bit ridiculous for a rower with a 2K time that is in the top 15 world wide across all ages and weights calling in for advice from a group of people who have been slogging away for years without coming close to that level. However, having said that,

If you want to be a great 2Ker, you also need to be a great 5Ker. You have to develop that fast endurance capability. Doing 30min and 10Ks can help getting to be a fast 5Ker, but the goal is a fast 5K. On the other side, is intervals. I see no real benefit to doing 1.5K and 2K intervals. Intervals are not done at race distance. Intervals are done at elevated paces at well less than race distance. 500m is a perfect interval distance for 2K. They can be done at varying speeds and rest times. To maximize the power aspect do fewer at faster pace and more rest. To help more with endurance do more a little slower with less rest. 750s can also be done. Also, why not do some 250m? Really crank up the speed and SPM's. BTW what is the projected SPM for your 2K? And slogging through 60K a week at 2:15 is the very definition of junk miles. Maybe once a week. As far as 30minR20, how about 30min R30+? I bet you are just killing time at 30R20. And you need four weightlifting sessions a week like you need a hole in the head for becoming a great rower. Try two. Perhaps three every other week or so.

I guess next Xeno, Rob, and Henrik will be writing in needing help.

[hjs]

I admit that I find it a bit ridiculous for a rower with a 2K time that is in the top 15 world wide across all ages and weights calling in for advice from a group of people who have been slogging away for years without coming close to that level. However, having said that,

If you want to be a great 2Ker, you also need to be a great 5Ker. You have to develop that fast endurance capability. Doing 30min and 10Ks can help getting to be a fast 5Ker, but the goal is a fast 5K. On the other side, is intervals. I see no real benefit to doing 1.5K and 2K intervals. Intervals are not done at race distance. Intervals are done at elevated paces at well less than race distance. 500m is a perfect interval distance for 2K. They can be done at varying speeds and rest times. To maximize the power aspect do fewer at faster pace and more rest. To help more with endurance do more a little slower with less rest. 750s can also be done. Also, why not do some 250m? Really crank up the speed and SPM's. BTW what is the projected SPM for your 2K? And slogging through 60K a week at 2:15 is the very definition of junk miles. Maybe once a week. As far as 30minR20, how about 30min R30+? I bet you are just killing time at 30R20. And you need four weightlifting sessions a week like you need a hole in the head for becoming a great rower. Try two. Perhaps three every other week or so.

I guess next Xeno, Rob, and Henrik will be writing in needing help.

Xeno certainly needs help... With his eating

For the rest I disagree mostly. The fact he pulles 6.11 says litte about his training. Only about his potential.
He is already good on the power front, his endurance is the weak link, there he needs to work. Any good fast rower does lots of meters at often lower rate, but certainly at higher speed. Those 20k s afe fine, but mot at that pace. A 6.11 rower will be able to pull 1.47/48 toughly on the half marathon. Doing work above 2.00 will hardly do anything. What he is doing now is sparing himself for the speedsessions. For now that is good ofcourse, but in the buildup its wrong. There the emphasis should laybon that endurence.
Re 5k indeed. For 6.11 you should be looking at 1.38 on the 5.

Longer intervals build mental strenght and a strong 5/10k a good foundation to build a 2k on. Pure speed is not very important. Only on 1k and below that becomes more important.

Another point, you look at things from a 68 year old perspective. Ofcourse you train kore causiously, but a young guys can do more. He can recover 10 times better.

[Cyclingman1]

I have very long history of doing fairly well in endurance athletics, as well as team sports. My insights have nothing to do with current age.

For example, the OP speaks of doing half-marathons in 1:25 under age 30 after years of running. Is that relevant? Could be. I have an extgensive background in running and cycling.

At age 45, I did a half-marathon in 1:21.x, around 6:12 pace at a weight of 192 lbs and well documented on a certified course. For those who have not run HMs, you don't know who good that is. I'm sure the OP does. For the first 10 miles, I ran a few meters behind the eventual winning female, who was about 5'4", 100 lb. It was warm day and I faded over the last 3 miles. Nonetheless, slow, big guys do not run 1:21 HMs. But I did. I knew WTH I was doing.

How did I do it? I did brutal 400m and 800m intervals at well below race pace. I did tempo runs about 15 secs over race pace of 6 to 8 miles. I never once ran race distance or more. Yes, I should have. But my goal was to be good at 10K, the standard distance for duathlons and triathons. Another reason I faded. But that is not the point. I did well on a steady diet of hard intevals well below race distance and long, fast endurace runs, still under race distance. I did not do junk miles.

My advice to the OP is based on a lifetime of experience.

[hjs]

What you or I did is not relevant. I never doubt your talent, I always said your background helped this plus your muscle build up. Its not for nothing your 500 is so poor (relative0 you simply have a lot of slow muscle fiber. Very good for endurance, on sprints you get nowhere.
You only talk your training for running, but the you did triatlons you simply ignore. Those are always long and very aerobic.
Your Hm was good, but toprunners do it in sub 60 min. you simply did not have the build. The same for rowers, they are never really good runners, way to much mass to carry around.
On the bike they can be good, uphill, forget it..... etc

I have little doubt you could have done better with different training.

A nice example. In his first year Graham Benton pulled around 6 flat, coming form 6.30 orso in his very first try. He even started smoking a bit. In your way of thinking that was great. Ofcourse it was not, he was just very talented. After he started training proberly, meters, meters, meters at low rate. Junk as you would proberly call it he progressed to 5.42.

I am not saying the op will improve that much, but its clear his aerobic fitness is not fuly trained. In the short run he can't change that but in the long run he can.
Speed/anaerobic training is very limited in 6/8 weeks you can roughly reach your peak. After that extra focus on speed alone will not help you. Its the base, strenght and aerobic capacity that need to be developed.

[Edward4492]

Far be it from me to tell a 6:10 erger how to train.....but ya did ask! Jim and Henry as always have valid points, and Jim definitely is consistent(and has enjoyed success) with his preference to short, fast, and hard. Myself, I lean towards Henry's way of thinking. There are too many examples of big mileage guys posting stellar results. I think we have to define high mileage, I always looked at that as 10 - 15k. And we have to look at quality. I've become a huge fan of the long, hard (for me) 20r stuff. At my level that means 10 - 15k 20r at 2:00 pace as the hardest sessions, otherwise 2:05 to 2:10 (58 LWT). One place where I seem to differ a bit is in taking a periodized approach. I was doing these rows up until the end of November, with the heaviest load back in the summer and early fall. Now it's all speed and extremely easy recovery rows. To mention some examples; you have Steve Roede who rowed huge meters (8 million in 10 months) and earned the 59 LWT hammer last year and turned 60 setting a handful of new records. Paul Buchanon blogs at "road to sub 6:00" with screen shots of daily doubles of 7500m@20r 1:45. And was posting HM's for a while at 20r in the 1:50's (can't recall exactly). There's a local guy in my area, not exactly a household name, he's basically a crossfitter who ergs; Richard Pruyn, he has a 6:02, a 30-39 fastest 1000m on C2 of 2:54. He posted a screenshot of a 25k at 18r, 1:52. No need to bring up Mike Caviston.

My gut feeling is that erging is actually fairly technical when you're operating at the fringes of maximum performance. I would have to say more so than cycling and running; but that's debatable. These types of rows are not done just to log miles, the definition of junk miles. I do the long, hard, low rate stuff in the off season. As I add in the higher intensity, the long rows become HR capped (75%) mostly recovery type efforts.

Sounds to me like the OP can take it to another level with more aerobic development; and with his obvious talent investing in a top coach would be money well spent.

[ugorakos]

Cyclingman,
I pulled my 2k PB at 34 s/m. The 250s sounds good. I think I'll try it. I see why you say 60K at 2.00-2.15 junk miles but I don't see why you think 30r20 "just killing time". That's very hard session and thousands of rowers do it regularly, even more than once a week. Just like weight training. The main difference between my plan now and 2005-2010 is that I didn't care very much about weight trainings back than. I rowed and ran much but trained with weights rarely. Than I spoke with a LW rower after my race in IRC of my country in 2010. I was very dissapointed with 6.25. He said they have to train with weights, especially heavy weight rowers.
But take a look at Roel Braas' arms (5.43,7) and Stef Broenink's legs (5.45,3). Do you really think that musclemass can be built up without serious weight training?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NZSoAVXfImU
Runners and cyclers don't nedd weight training. Rowers do, I'm sure.
Your 1:21 running HM at age 45 over 190 lbs is really excellent!

[ugorakos]

hjs,
I feel that I could row sub 1.50 avg in 20K in a race but not three times every week. However I'll try to pull sub 2.00. Today I did 2.01
OK, next season I'll place more emphasis on 5K. On Sat I think I'm going to try the 4x2k on 5'r. I'm corious if I can sub 1.40 avg. I think 1.38 is impossible now...

[ugorakos]

Edward,
I also read Paul's blog. I hope he'll hit 5.59 one day. He is very motivating and the articles of his team made me understand the importance of low rating trainings. So after the race I'll do much more than last year.
http://www.q-power.co/Training_Articles.html
8000K in 10 months??? That's 800K/month and almost 200K/week. How is it possible? Rowing twice every day?
Coaches in my country don't care about guys how are intersted only in erg...