Stale rankings?

zen cohen · Post by **zen cohen** » November 3rd, 2007, 6:05 pm

Hi, y'all. Everytime I do a PB I like to promptly enter it on the online rankings. Then I look at profiles of some of my "neighbors," especially those just ahead of me. (OK, that's prolly a little goofy but that's a way to help keep myself motivated.)

Sometimes I notice some rowers' times don't match up well. For example, I might see someone row a 10k at 40:00 but he'll state in his profile he rowed a sub-39 that season. Or a similar rower might mention he's done a sub-7 2k, which doesn't really translate well with a 40-mon 10k.

Are these rankings very current? I realize it's hard to generalize with thousands of rowers posting.

BTW, TBartman, if you're the Thomas Bartmman who's done a 39:40-something 10K, I'm about 7-10 seconds behind you and moving up fast! (Unless you haven't updated with a new PB lately

) And congrats on losing the 75!

ctp16 · Post by **ctp16** » November 3rd, 2007, 9:41 pm

Well, some people have better long distance endurance than others for events like the 2k. Some strong guys can just pull out low splits and have the pain tolerance to cope with 6-7 mins of pain. I started out like that and since I've been training differently, I've noticed dramatic improvements in my training. I still need to work on my endurance for longer pieces ie 10k, 30 min, 1 hour etc. but I'm getting there. Also, it IS the internet, so there's always discrepancies.

Yankeerunner · Post by **Yankeerunner** » November 4th, 2007, 10:09 am

Some of my own don't always match up well until the end of the season. Early in the ranking year I will tend to do ranking distances or times as regular workouts (ranking, say, a 60:00 UT2 workout, or doing a half-marathon at UT2 pace instead of a scheduled 90' UT2) just to get something up and give myself and others in my age group some targets for motivation, much as you state with looking at your 'neighbors.' In that sense I try to be an active neighbor.

Also, one never knows when injury might make it unlikely to post newer times and therefore even something much slower than a PB is better than nothing. If I can keep injuries and illness in check well enough I eventually take my best shot around March or April at getting a max effort at all the lagging scores.

parishd · Post by **parishd** » November 4th, 2007, 1:48 pm

As I've done longer and longer pieces I've come to the realization that I'm not really pushing myself on the shorter ones. When I did my first half-marathon, I realized I could do much better on the 60-min row and, after completing my first marathon yesterday, I now realize I could do much better still on the half-marathon and 60-min rows. Over time this will probably motivate me to lower my times, but for now I've been focused on long-term continuity in my rowing and don't want to do anything that would throw that off track.

tbartman · Post by **tbartman** » November 6th, 2007, 1:12 pm

Wow, didn't expect to see myself referenced by name on here! Someone throwing down a gauntlet?

I am Thomas Bartman, a.k.a. tbartman. My PB 10k right now is the 39:49.4 you refer to. I did that about a month ago. Interestingly, I am one of those people whose times you might find strange (and I've written here before for advice). Following Paul's Law (or looking at my percentage in the standings), I do much better at the shorter distances than the long. For example, that 10k at 39:49.4 puts me in the top 38% for 40-49 Hwt men, but last night I set a new PB in the 2k (7:00.8), which is in the top 15%. (D**m that 0.8 seconds)

Looking across my times, I get much slower than I'm supposed to as the distances/times increase (or alternately I do much better on shorter distances than my long distance times would predict).

Anyway, I'm using the C2 UK training program, and looking for about 6:52 by the end of January. My most previous 2k was 7:09.9 in April, although I didn't start the TP until the end of July. So, in a touch over 3 months, I've dropped 9 seconds, and I'd like to drop another 9 in the next 3 months. I may be shooting for too much, but I think my erg gives me slower scores (I'll start a new thread on that in the Product catagory).

BTW, I don't see you in the rankings just behind me (even when I look at all men, all weights).

zen cohen · Post by **zen cohen** » November 6th, 2007, 6:52 pm

tbartman wrote:Wow, didn't expect to see myself referenced by name on here! Someone throwing down a gauntlet?

I am Thomas Bartman, a.k.a. tbartman. My PB 10k right now is the 39:49.4 you refer to. I did that about a month ago. Interestingly, I am one of those people whose times you might find strange (and I've written here before for advice). Following Paul's Law (or looking at my percentage in the standings), I do much better at the shorter distances than the long. For example, that 10k at 39:49.4 puts me in the top 38% for 40-49 Hwt men, but last night I set a new PB in the 2k (7:00.8), which is in the top 15%. (D**m that 0.8 seconds)

Looking across my times, I get much slower than I'm supposed to as the distances/times increase (or alternately I do much better on shorter distances than my long distance times would predict).

Anyway, I'm using the C2 UK training program, and looking for about 6:52 by the end of January. My most previous 2k was 7:09.9 in April, although I didn't start the TP until the end of July. So, in a touch over 3 months, I've dropped 9 seconds, and I'd like to drop another 9 in the next 3 months. I may be shooting for too much, but I think my erg gives me slower scores (I'll start a new thread on that in the Product catagory).

BTW, I don't see you in the rankings just behind me (even when I look at all men, all weights).

No gauntlet. Just nice to see a forum poster close to me in the rankings and having a little fun. Look for 'Mark Yanis' in the rankings to see where I am.

Interesting that your short pieces are so strong compared to your longer ones. I tend to be the opposite, I think, but I just like doing the slightly longer pieces. I haven't even tried for a serious PB in anything longer than 5000M for several months. I'll prolly try a 2K soon but I'd be happy with anything under 7:30 for the time being.

Good luck getting that sub-7. I imagine it'll be a long time before I get to that point (if at all).

tbartman · Post by **tbartman** » November 6th, 2007, 7:29 pm

Don't worry about not getting to sub-7 like me (almost). Remember you are 9 years older (some disadvantage) and 5" shorter (BIG disadvantage). You should feel great that you are able to compete me with (and many others) on your 10k piece.

A little competition/stimulation always helps. One of my buds here (snailspace) was the one who got me to do the 2k last night, over some serious psychological issues. I now feel better than I have in many months because I firmly believe the sub-7 is coming!! Thanks snailspace (and everyone else who goads me into working out).

I went through last years rankings, and found that my 2k was top 25% for 40-49-year-old HW men in 2007. So, I've written down what was top 25% for all the other distances and will try to systematically knock them off one at a time. Tonight: 30 min. (I need 7701m which is a pace of 1:56.9)

Nosmo · Post by **Nosmo** » November 6th, 2007, 8:56 pm

tbartman,
your LP is way too high given your 2k Time. That should be the first thing to lower.

tbartman · Post by **tbartman** » November 6th, 2007, 9:11 pm

Yeah, the LP is just what I've seen, but not what I've tried. After doing 4 x 3' at 1:43, I was in a cooldown for about 6', then decided I had a little energy left and tried to see how low I could go for 30 seconds. I was hovering at 1:37-1:38 (rate of about 32).

One of these days I'll try it for real.

So tonight, either 30' or 10k for a new PB (I hope, unless I haven't recovered from last night's 2k as much as I currently think).

Tom

tbartman · Post by **tbartman** » November 6th, 2007, 11:32 pm

Mark,

Sorry dude! You did such a good job trash talking me, that now you are about 1 minute behind me (I just did a 38:58.6 - look at the rankings). Thank you (seriously) for pushing me. I would have never done it if it weren't for you (just like the 2k and snailspace yesterday).

I also noticed you are a LW. +9 years, -5", -25 lbs; I reiterate that I'm impressed you are gunning for me!!

Keep up the great work.

BTW, where is "HB" in sunny California? I lived in San Francisco for 7 years.

DUThomas · Post by **DUThomas** » November 6th, 2007, 11:54 pm

50 seconds off your 10K time in a month! Nice work!

michaelb · Post by **michaelb** » November 7th, 2007, 12:10 am

tbartman, I have to say that I amazed by how fast your 2k time is and how slow your other times are in comparison. Don't take that wrong, but great job on the 2k. You should get online and we will push you to drop that 5k and 10k time to your limit in short order.

One of the interesting things about rowpro is that you download other peoples rows from the rankings and row against them. You see them as they rowed, stroke by stroke. Many people seem to use strange, bizarre pacing for what you would think was a good row for them, maybe even a season best. I will see people go out -10 secs faster in pace and then take a 5 minute break in the middle of a 10k row. So just judging by what I have seen on RP, a lot of "junk" gets into the rankings.

Although I haven't done it yet this year, like Rick I will often rank good rows early in the season expecting to erase them later when I get serious. Also, many people want to do the nonathlon and that requires racing at every distance, and it can be hard to get around to training for and doing them all seriously. So I may never get around to racing the 30 min row or updating the HM, because I never get around to doing them again.

zen cohen · Post by **zen cohen** » November 7th, 2007, 12:43 am

tbartman wrote:Mark,

Sorry dude! You did such a good job trash talking me, that now you are about 1 minute behind me (I just did a 38:58.6 - look at the rankings). Thank you (seriously) for pushing me. I would have never done it if it weren't for you (just like the 2k and snailspace yesterday).

I also noticed you are a LW. +9 years, -5", -25 lbs; I reiterate that I'm impressed you are gunning for me!!

Keep up the great work.

BTW, where is "HB" in sunny California? I lived in San Francisco for 7 years.

Congrats on the new 10K PB and glad my little bit of trash talk provided some motivation. That's what friendly competition is all about. If I see that I'm getting close to you in the rankings again, I'll let you know so you can knock some more time off and pull away.

HB is Huntington Beach, which is north Orange County, and only about 15 miles from the legendary Xeno Muller's shop. SF is great and we might be looking to move to Northern CA down the road.

Thanks for the encouragement. Like you I've dropped a lot of weight (from about 220 to 165) and feel great nowadays.

tbartman · Post by **tbartman** » November 7th, 2007, 9:52 am

So I dug up the pace prediction excel spreadsheet (I forget where I originally found it - somewhere on here), that gives Paul's Law and 5 other pace prediction equations. Entering my 7:00.8 for 2k and 38:58.6 for 10k is almost EXACTLY Paul's Law (the 2k predicts a 10k of 38:56.2, only 2.4 seconds off). Using both of these times from the last two days, three different equations match exactly (#1, #2, and #4). So, maybe I just wasn't pushing myself on the long distances and need to retract my statement that I didn't fit the curves (or maybe the training program has changed me).

So, now I know what to shoot for on the other times. Next up (after a day's rest) = 5k at 18:39 (1:51.9).

Thanks to Bill Wakeley for the program. Thanks to all of you for the kick in the pants!