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How much to lean the upper body at the end of the drive?
Posted: August 13th, 2007, 10:53 pm
by guasaman
Hi rowers!!!
Today for the first time in my life I decided to try rowing in the local gym ergs instead of home. While i was rowing in this gym (the have the same c2 erg that i have at home), one of the gym teachers there came to me to correcy my technique. He said I was leaning too much at the end of the drive ("The Finish"). He said the back should be perpendicular to the floor at all times.
I ignored that advice as I feel it would put lots of pressure on my lower back, in contrast with leaning slightly at the end of the drive by simply using my own body weight, but the doubt arose: ¿how much should I lean back at the end of the drive?
I checked the concept2 website and in the "How to row" section it states -"Lean your upper body back slightly", so not much there for the detail I was looking for
. From watching the animation on that page I can tell you I lean a little bit more than that. Actually, I lean exactly as much as the fourth drawing starting from the top in the "Muscles used" section of the concept2 website. This makes sense to me as I came from a heavy water rowing background.
So, I am interested in other opinions about the sweet spot on how much to lean in order to maximize the pool and avoid injuries.
So far, I feel comfortable with my techniche and I think the advise i was given in the local gym is not good at all for your back.
Thanks!
Saludos from down south
Gustavo
Posted: August 14th, 2007, 12:09 am
by George Dunning
2 comments for what they are worth
1/ Surprised to hear a gym instructor knows anything about erging
2/ You cant go wrong I believe with a 'lean' range of 11o'clock to 1o'clock
Posted: August 14th, 2007, 6:35 am
by guasaman
thanks for the good tip!
After some research I also found this nice poster on rowing technique
http://www.ara-rowing.org/Asp/uploadedF ... %20erg.pdf
Saludos!
Posted: August 14th, 2007, 11:53 am
by tbartman
George has got it - about 11 o'clock to 1 o'clock
What surprises me is the number of photos I see (especially from competition, and even one in a recent Rowing News about VO2 max testing), where very excessive layback is seen. Again and again, people say that this maximizes the length of the pull and the erg score, but I think it has been demonstrated that the time and calories wasted on the extended pull would be better used elsewhere (e.g. increasing the rate a touch). This in addition to the damage that this technique can cause.
The advice given to you was also poor in the opposite way. Keeping totally straight will not be natural and will strain the back as you approach the end of the drive.
Posted: August 14th, 2007, 12:39 pm
by Bob S.
tbartman wrote:George has got it - about 11 o'clock to 1 o'clock
That's thirty degrees each way, which seems excessive to me, a full sixty degree movement. The other angle that I have seen quoted on this forum is ten degrees each way. I wonder if anyone has ever made a study of it using photos to see what the real angles are that most ergers (and rowers as well) are using.
Bob S.
Posted: August 14th, 2007, 1:07 pm
by PaulS
Bob S. wrote:tbartman wrote:George has got it - about 11 o'clock to 1 o'clock
That's thirty degrees each way, which seems excessive to me, a full sixty degree movement. The other angle that I have seen quoted on this forum is ten degrees each way. I wonder if anyone has ever made a study of it using photos to see what the real angles are that most ergers (and rowers as well) are using.
Bob S.
If you draw a line from the hip to shoulder, you will find that very close to what is done by relatively well represented athletes in both disciplines. It also seems to be a good description to get folks performing in the right range. Certainly better than "perpendicular to the floor at all times" which is not uncommon to see in many novices and self-taughts. (Though there is a successful German Rower that does just about that, even in team boats where it looks terribly out of place next to his team mates.)
Posted: August 14th, 2007, 5:41 pm
by Bob S.
PaulS wrote:
If you draw a line from the hip to shoulder, you will find that very close to what is done by relatively well represented athletes in both disciplines. It also seems to be a good description to get folks performing in the right range.
Paul,
I am assuming that you were referring to the thirty degree angles and not the ten, but it isn't completely clear from the context. Please specify.
By the way, a couple of hours ago I completed a 60' 13546m piece which knocks the hell out of my old LWT WR in 2006, 13371m, and my HWT WR from last year, 13415m. When is this aging thing supposed to kick in? The odd thing about it is that this season's training has consisted of less than a couple of workouts a week. There were none in May, four in June, nine in July, and five so far this August. A total of 18 for the season, including a FM, a HM, and today's 60'. The FM also was faster than my old WRs, light and heavy.
Maybe it helps to give ancient bodies a few days between workouts to recover.
Bob S.
Re: How much to lean the upper body at the end of the drive?
Posted: August 14th, 2007, 5:50 pm
by rtmmtl
guasaman wrote:Hi rowers!!!
Today for the first time in my life I decided to try rowing in the local gym ergs instead of home. While i was rowing in this gym (the have the same c2 erg that i have at home), one of the gym teachers there came to me to correcy my technique. He said I was leaning too much at the end of the drive ("The Finish"). He said the back should be perpendicular to the floor at all times.
I ignored that advice as I feel it would put lots of pressure on my lower back, in contrast with leaning slightly at the end of the drive by simply using my own body weight, but the doubt arose: ¿how much should I lean back at the end of the drive?
I checked the concept2 website and in the "How to row" section it states -"Lean your upper body back slightly", so not much there for the detail I was looking for :) . From watching the animation on that page I can tell you I lean a little bit more than that. Actually, I lean exactly as much as the fourth drawing starting from the top in the "Muscles used" section of the concept2 website. This makes sense to me as I came from a heavy water rowing background.
So, I am interested in other opinions about the sweet spot on how much to lean in order to maximize the pool and avoid injuries.
So far, I feel comfortable with my techniche and I think the advise i was given in the local gym is not good at all for your back.
Thanks!
Saludos from down south
Gustavo
Check this link Xeno Muller, ex-Olympian interactive demo.....click the arrow, make him go slow, make him go fast.
http://www.invernessrowingclub.co.uk/pe ... o_erg.html
Posted: August 14th, 2007, 9:10 pm
by PaulS
Bob S. wrote:PaulS wrote:
If you draw a line from the hip to shoulder, you will find that very close to what is done by relatively well represented athletes in both disciplines. It also seems to be a good description to get folks performing in the right range.
Paul,
I am assuming that you were referring to the thirty degree angles and not the ten, but it isn't completely clear from the context. Please specify.
By the way, a couple of hours ago I completed a 60' 13546m piece which knocks the hell out of my old LWT WR in 2006, 13371m, and my HWT WR from last year, 13415m. When is this aging thing supposed to kick in? The odd thing about it is that this season's training has consisted of less than a couple of workouts a week. There were none in May, four in June, nine in July, and five so far this August. A total of 18 for the season, including a FM, a HM, and today's 60'. The FM also was faster than my old WRs, light and heavy.
Maybe it helps to give ancient bodies a few days between workouts to recover.
Bob S.
Yes, the 30 deg.
Congratulations on the new BP's "By a mile", indeed, we actually become better on the recovery days. The training days are there just to make the recovery days effective.
Posted: August 15th, 2007, 1:20 pm
by PaulS
Found this during a image search on 'rowing'. The head position is pretty strange, but other than that, not a bad representation of body positions. Remember than not all bodies are the same proportions so reality will vary somewhat from the illustration in search to find ones own style.
Posted: September 2nd, 2007, 3:10 am
by ilost
i have technique questions also:
1) you can set your ankle supports at 5 different levels. how do i know which is best for me?
2) when you finish the stroke in the picture it seems that the knee is right above the foot. but i think i try to take it beyond 90degrees so that i could get a longer reach for the next stroke. is it a bad idea/inefficient?
thanks!
Posted: September 3rd, 2007, 10:54 am
by PaulS
ilost wrote:i have technique questions also:
1) you can set your ankle supports at 5 different levels. how do i know which is best for me?
2) when you finish the stroke in the picture it seems that the knee is right above the foot. but i think i try to take it beyond 90degrees so that i could get a longer reach for the next stroke. is it a bad idea/inefficient?
thanks!
1) Balls of your feet at about rail height, +/- 1 for what you fins comfortable.
2) By making the angle at the knee too acute (bum close to heels) you will end up wasting time around the catch. So in the fewest words possible, yes.
From Steve Fairbairn's notes on rowing: "Don't bite off more than you can chew." IOW - It's not the length that you can go through, it's what you can do within your length.