how much of your rowing is UT1 and UT2?

General discussion on Training. How to get better on your erg, how to use your erg to get better at another sport, or anything else about improving your abilities.
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hjs
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Re: how much of your rowing is UT1 and UT2?

Post by hjs » December 2nd, 2014, 5:32 am

KevJGK wrote:
Hanzo wrote:What I am after is insight into how other people train, and how I should set up my weekly rowing sessions to progress and move forward.
As others have said, your 7 minute goal depends on where you are now and your potential for improvement. For some people 7 minutes is easy because their potential is much greater but for others it’s difficult because it’s close to the maximum.

It took me a year of focussed training to go from 7:15 to 7:00 following the Wolverine Plan. I did 6 sessions a week totalling 60K consisting of 3 Level 4 sessions and 1 each of Levels 1, 2 & 3. My 30’ PB was 7,639M

Best of luck with your goals but remember 'the journey is the reward'.
Indeed. At 5.5 7 flat seems a very tough target. At the moment you are far off. With a smaller body its hard to pull the watts needed.

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Re: how much of your rowing is UT1 and UT2?

Post by Hanzo » December 2nd, 2014, 6:47 am

Thansk for all the advice people, at this point the goal is to get under 7:30, and this should be doable. If I'm able to push beyond that, time will show. I really need to push past 7500m in 30min, but seems everyone seems to agree thay should be doable with focues training. Aside from this, I dont really have a goal with this aside from keeping myself in fair shape, both visually and cardio vise, and enjoy myself while on the erg. I will shot a new video and post, hopefully my form has improved, but it's not easy to judge from the erg. Getting the erg was the smartest thing I did in a long while, and posting on this forum a close second :)

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Re: how much of your rowing is UT1 and UT2?

Post by Edward4492 » December 2nd, 2014, 8:37 am

If it's any consolation, "Rocket" Roy Brooks is about your stature; he pulled the WR for 55-59LW at a 6:38; I believe that record still stands. He's obviously an outlier and a very special rower with an incredible aerobic engine. But he's a fairly short guy.

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Re: how much of your rowing is UT1 and UT2?

Post by Cyclingman1 » December 2nd, 2014, 8:56 am

I know it is really “iffy” to start comparing people’s times across different distances, but I’ve looked at the 2014 rankings for 60-69, all weights, to see what kind of correlation there is for 2K, 5K, and 30min. I suggested that 7:00 (1.45), 18:20-30 (1:50-51), and 8000 (1:52.5) were reasonable/typical across those distances. There are some variations, but I think I am pretty close. Some are a little better at one or more of the distances. There were not all that many who post times for all three distances. I picked 60-69 to look at because the number of rowers is manageable and 7min for 2K is a good time in that bracket.

Name, age 2K 5K 30min

Dave Frost, 61 6:47.2 17:48.1 8137
Jim Grattan, 67 6:48.8 17:34.7 8269
M. Van Beuren, 61 6:53.9 18:04.0 7989
Bob Willis, 63 6:58.0 18:34.9 7941
Greg Williams, 63 6:58.6 18:16.1 8072
Stu Miller, 66 6:59.2 17:53.3 8168
Greg Brock, 66 7:09.8 18:35.7 7913
Bill Collins, 68 7:14.9 19:04.0 7739

A few 2015:

Lindsay Hay, 62 6:51.8 18:35.4 8003
Paul Victory, 61 6:58.7 18:20.2 7994
Steve Roedde, 60 7:04.2 18:42.6 8038
John Hussey, 61 7:04.8 18:43.4 7852
Trenholm Walker, 61 7:06.4 18:24.9 8028
JimG, Gainesville, Ga, 74, 76", 195lb. PBs:
66-69: .5,1,2,5,6,10K: 1:30.8 3:14.1 6:40.7 17:34.0 21:18.1 36:21.7 30;60;HM: 8337 16237 1:20:25
70-74: .5,1,2,5,6,10K: 1:33.3 3:19.5 6:58.1 17:55.3 21:32.6 36:41.9 30;60;HM: 8214 15353 1:23:02.5

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Re: how much of your rowing is UT1 and UT2?

Post by rhr » December 3rd, 2014, 4:15 am

Edward4492 wrote:Jim is right as always, I was pulling 7800m in 30m, not really an all out effort, when I was at 6:59. In fact the only real difference between Jim and I is he likes his pain served up short, hard. and fast and I like the longer stuff. To get to your point I'm just starting on a "polarized" approach. I just started on a plan to do about 70-80% of my distance long and easy. I decided on a capped HR of 70% of max and a 20r. That puts me at 125 - 130 Hr, 20r, 2:08 pace. I'm doing four days a week, 10 to 12k. I really find the long stuff relaxing and rejuvenating, just try and slip into a groove and focus on perfect (hopefully!) strokes and trying to hang dead on the pace, rate, and HR. The other two days, hit it hard. Right now I'm doing longish hard stuff (1) x 5000m or (2) x 2500. I'll work that down to (3) x1000m and (6) x 500m as the races get closer. The long stuff helps with weight control, I'm a fence-sitting lightweight. I'm always right around 165, if I cut my volume the weight drifts up. So, as the theory goes the volume continues to build the aerobic base while not leaving you smoked. On the hard days, you're ready to rip it. I did a 5k yesterday, definitely not a PR attempt, but was getting progressively faster at each 1000m split and finished 10s off my PR (18:49) pace. Tired but not blown. My next big effort this week will be a challenge row.

Getting back to the OP. hard to go wrong with the Pete Plan. A little bit of long, medium, and short stuff. Should work if you'rer looking for general fitness and improvement. To make huge improvements will require (IMO) a more focused, specialized approach to erg training. And probably at least 40 to 50k a week on the erg.

(I won't bore all of the regulars by re-hashing my recent training, but if the OP has an interest I'll post it up)
Edward I'm trying to bite my lip and keep quiet but I can't help myself! There are 12-13 weeks until the Crash B's in Boston - are you entering? If so I don't know of any of the well established plans that would recommend the training you are doing now. Namely 4x week at 2:08 or 8W' / stroke R20 versus a 10W' + target for the 2k. If you read Pete's blog he does no rowing at 10% or more W" / stroke below his 2k level. He may not row fast every time but his power output per stroke is consistent around his 2k level. Higher for the short intervals / slightly lower for the long steady rows (10k etc). With the IP on C2 there is no rowing below UT1 with 10 weeks to go to race day. The Wolverine Plan also requires a decent power per stroke.

Perhaps Henry can wade in here but to my mind, with 12-13 weeks to go to race day, you're training twice a week (UT1 - AT maybe breaching TR briefly) and weakening your stroke the other 4 days a week. Given your cycling background and solid aerobic base I don't see what beneficial training effect you're getting on those 4 days. The only upside is calories burnt.

Edward I'm sorry to butt in but you're a keen erger with some talent and I'm convinced, given there are no established and trusted plans recommending pootling along 4 times a week, that you're not going to improve your times materially doing your current training.

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Re: how much of your rowing is UT1 and UT2?

Post by Cyclingman1 » December 3rd, 2014, 5:44 am

I'm a bit in uncharted waters here in that I've never done over 50K a week for even one week let alone for weeks on end. Maybe I could build up to it, but I think it more likely it would lay me low.

I'm thinking just as Edward says he is doing, 4 10-12K rows are just for a little calorie burning and because he is addicted.
If he is doing 2 speed workouts a week, that is plenty for improving, especially since one of them is longer. I doubt seriously if he could put much faster efforts into those other four days and still have the energy to do well in his two speed days.

Everyone's tolerance for training is different and will go down at some point as one ages. Maybe Edward is right on track?
JimG, Gainesville, Ga, 74, 76", 195lb. PBs:
66-69: .5,1,2,5,6,10K: 1:30.8 3:14.1 6:40.7 17:34.0 21:18.1 36:21.7 30;60;HM: 8337 16237 1:20:25
70-74: .5,1,2,5,6,10K: 1:33.3 3:19.5 6:58.1 17:55.3 21:32.6 36:41.9 30;60;HM: 8214 15353 1:23:02.5

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Re: how much of your rowing is UT1 and UT2?

Post by lindsayh » December 3rd, 2014, 6:03 am

Lindsay Hay, 62 6:51.8 18:35.4 8003
Jim I agree with your broad brush generalisation for times and to put into perspective my 5k is probably close to 18:20 as well (but sadly not close to 18:00) - the posted time was part of a 6km.
There is a 5k TT in the plans for December so I hope to update it soon. Still the longer it goes the slower it gets unfortunately!

Edward I agree with Rodney too - with 3 months to go a plan with a sharper point to it would be better. If you go to the Interactive Plan on the ISS site you can dial in a goal time and date and it will lay it out week by week in sessions. IMO you should be looking at some harder interval sessions as part of the training - say 8x 500/2'r, 4x 750/3'r, 4x 1000/4'r, 5x 1500/5'r. (the IP works in times not distances though)
Lindsay
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Sydney Australia
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PBs (65y+) 1 min 349m, 500m 1:29.8, 1k 3:11.7 2k 6:47.4, 5km 18:07.9, 30' 7928m, 10k 37:57.2, 60' 15368m

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Re: how much of your rowing is UT1 and UT2?

Post by rhr » December 3rd, 2014, 7:17 am

Jim, 5000m and 2x2500m are not speed work. They are, to quote from the Pete Plan, "endurance intervals". Speed work are the workouts Lindsay mentioned, 8x500m, the pyramid etc.

The IP has 2 speed work sessions a week, 2 endurance intervals and 2 UT1 as the race approaches.

To be clear, I'm not suggesting Edward race his training, merely to pull more powerful strokes during his "easier" training and do some speed work. If you look at his shorter distance times relative to his 2k (adjusted for age) he would benefit from speed work (his relative weakness). If you look at the top age group rowers in his age bracket they do row decent volumes per week and do the full array of workouts - speed, endurance, steady state (but with strong power output). The same can be said for the 60's category - Lindsay does good volumes and is still setting great PB's at 64. Steve Roedde does insane mileages on and off the erg - not surprisingly he holds, and keeps breaking, various 60's world records. Interestingly he combines 100m sprints and fast interval workouts on the back of long aerobic rows.

Your past sporting background and genetics will determine how well you do rowing for the first 3-9 months as Henry mentioned. You can do pretty much any training and you'll get to where you're going. Beyond that point you have to do the real hard work to get faster and improve. If Edward has hit his training tolerance doing 2x endurance intervals and the rest soft stroke low intensity sub UT2 rows then he has reached the end of the road performance wise. Those 2x sessions are not, IMO, "plenty for improving" - not after having already rowed for months, beyond the "honeymoon gains" period. But my sense is that he has the energy and the desire to push harder and more importantly, go faster. I'm happy to be corrected with examples of age bracket rowers who have made decent 2k time gains on the training Edward mentioned after they have already rowed for a year.

I'm sure we'll hear from the man himself soon enough!

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Re: how much of your rowing is UT1 and UT2?

Post by hjs » December 3rd, 2014, 9:02 am

Form what I have seen over the years. Its very hard to improve after the first serious period. Only people who are not fit, overweight etc keep improving longer and more. People who right away reach a decent or good level often have trouble to improve.
I think rowing ut2 work helps, but only if its enough and in the run up to race, ut2 is only recovery. And for people who don,t make enough meters. ut2 work does not much. Those are better of keeping the intensity higher and do longer interval work, reps between 1k and 2k Volume 6/10 per session. Paces around 5k pace give or take. That can really build a good base, both in endurance and toughnes.
Close to race you need to do 2k paced and rated work. We need to get used to that intensity and kind of effort. Doing a few 2k s in the run up above 95% is a good idea. You need to have an idea what you can handle, what pacing suits you etc...

And for ut2 work. Although not hard, its certainly not slow, once ou are fit 70% of HRR is still a decent pace and the volume that comes with it makes it tough. I do think though, that watching your recovery is important and also your strenghlevels. Doing high volumes of endurance work will often make you weaker and lose strenght. In the long run you may get fitter aerobicly but not improve on your 2k that way.

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Re: how much of your rowing is UT1 and UT2?

Post by Edward4492 » December 3rd, 2014, 1:05 pm

Rodney,

Thanks for the advice! I haven't lost track of the big prize! What I am trying to do is not peak too soon and not fall in the trap of starting to go extremely hard every work out. I'm really trying to divide my training between the long easy rows and really hit the hard stuff hard. This morning I completed one of my "challenge" rows of 15 minutes max meters. Not really fresh as it was an early am effort; had a target of 4000m, hit it with 4017m at a 1:52 pace. Very happy with that. I'll pot the details and a screen shot later. I have a 1000m comp on Dec 13th; so I'll be nailing some 1000's to see what I can do there with a 3:20 target. By mid December I plan on changing the balance to 50% (three days a week) long and easy to 50% (three days a week of (3) x 1000m, (2) x2500m, and (6) x 500m. I do these free rate, slightly above or below 2k pace (depending on the length) with whatever rest I need, typically 5 minutes between efforts.

Your comments are ALWAYS welcome! I appreciate the talent of all those who post here. i feel like I'm hearing from the best coaches in the world.

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Re: how much of your rowing is UT1 and UT2?

Post by Edward4492 » December 3rd, 2014, 1:47 pm

Just went back and read all of your comments (Jim, Henry, et al). Again thanks for the input. I start erg racing on 1/31 and race every weekend up to CRASH B's. By January I plan on going faster and faster with less and less volume. I have no disagreement with any of your comments and appreciate the spirit in which they're given. I'm really looking to think outside the box, not challenging anyone's assertions. But I don't believe (until I prove otherwise through training!) that long steady volume will cause me to lose speed IF I do the hard fast stuff 2-3 times a week. The times I can pull in those sessions will tell me if I'm on track. Up until now I have been doing the long hard (for me) 20r, 205 to 210 watt rows up to 10k. These take a lot out of me and I can't hit (nor do I mentally FEEL like hitting) a hard interval session the next day. Today's 4000m was at a 1:52.0 pace my previous 5000m PR was at 1:53.5 pace. I held a 167 HR average (93% of max) and was not trashed afterwards. At my numbers that tells me I'm on track. You guys could be right, I'll have time to adjust if my short interval times aren't where I want them to be. As Jim stated (and yes Jim, I would appear to be just a little bit addicted!) the 2 -3 times a week of hard intervals should be enough. At 58 yrs old, I'm very careful to monitor my training load. My target for CRASH B's is 6:56. By mid-January I like to do a 1300m each week at dead on 2k race pace. No sprint at the end. These give me a good feel for what I can realistically do in a full 2k with-out the stress.

I'll continue to experiment and train hard and keep ya posted. And feel free to offer constructive criticism. I have huge respect for you guys as you have been doing it for a very long time with impressive resumes and results.

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Re: how much of your rowing is UT1 and UT2?

Post by rhr » December 3rd, 2014, 2:15 pm

My apologies Edward, if you're doing up to 3 hard intervals a week and your target is 6:56 or 3 secs improvement (0.75s / 500m) then you are on track. I thought you may be aiming for something a bit more ambitious. 3 hard / 3 easy is fair enough. Reading your previous post I thought you were doing 4 very easy (sub UT2) and 2 moderately hard endurance intervals.

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Re: how much of your rowing is UT1 and UT2?

Post by Edward4492 » December 3rd, 2014, 2:24 pm

I can't even remember exactly what I wrote (getting old!). No apologies necessary! I did about two weeks of 4 and 2 with out too much intensity. This week ramping it up and will continue to do so. As far as ambitions? Going by my history and current rate of improvement I'm thinking 6:56 is a challenging attainable target. My lifetime (recent) best of 6:59 would indicate that trying to make a jump to low 6:50's isn't realistic. To be honest I'm shooting for the podium, but I'll be 100% satisfied if I can pull the time I'm capable of. After that, it's a matter of who shows up and how fast they can go.

One thing I've learned on the erg.....you aren't going to will-power your way to a fast time!

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Re: how much of your rowing is UT1 and UT2?

Post by Cyclingman1 » December 3rd, 2014, 5:33 pm

Edward4492 wrote:Today's 4000m was at a 1:52.0 pace my previous 5000m PR was at 1:53.5 pace.
I'm glad to see the 4K pace number. If you would have told me that you were an 18:55 5Ker, I would have said no way can you go sub-7min. Of course, I'm wrong about that. That is an 8.5 sec differential. But now you are probably near 18:40, so I'm a little more happy with that. Only a seven sec differential. I think if you were better at 5K and 30min, that closer to 6:50 would be in sight. Those double/triple distance hard endurance efforts translate well to 2K. Makes that second 1K go a whole lot better.

Back in May when I had good form, I had 7.4 sec differential between 2K and 10K. The funny thing is that I'm not a distance guy. I'm averaging 21K a week this year. I believe you are at 12.8 sec between 2K and 10K. It may be too late in the training cycle to work on those longer distances, but, again, they need to come down some. Maybe others here can add to or dispute what I am saying. If I have the number correct, Robert is at 1:37.7 for 2K and 1:45.9 for 10K or a differential of 8.2 sec. I know we all have different physical makeups, but I don't think I'm wrong about the need for hard endurance efforts.
JimG, Gainesville, Ga, 74, 76", 195lb. PBs:
66-69: .5,1,2,5,6,10K: 1:30.8 3:14.1 6:40.7 17:34.0 21:18.1 36:21.7 30;60;HM: 8337 16237 1:20:25
70-74: .5,1,2,5,6,10K: 1:33.3 3:19.5 6:58.1 17:55.3 21:32.6 36:41.9 30;60;HM: 8214 15353 1:23:02.5

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Re: how much of your rowing is UT1 and UT2?

Post by Edward4492 » December 3rd, 2014, 11:20 pm

Interesting comments Jim. I'm throwing a dart and thinking that double the race distance ( I read that somewhere, maybe Mike Caviston?) is a good place to be for race prep hard endurance work. This was my first time doing 4000m (all due to those crazy crossfitters!) but I think I like this distance for 2k race prep. I feel as if i can go pretty hard the whole way and it should make the 2k a little more palatable. I may make this the longest of my hard work outs. As you stated, a little late to be trying to do the hard 10k's. They're too hard to recover from. One of the benefits of rowing six days a week with a decent volume is I seem to get a feel for whats working rather quickly. I don't jump around too much, my training is always planned out. But if something is obviously no getting me closer to the goal I adjust quickly. I have three events on the schedule prior to Boston. I look at these as opportunities to experiment with pacing, etc. so I know exactly where I want to be.

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