how much of your rowing is UT1 and UT2?

General discussion on Training. How to get better on your erg, how to use your erg to get better at another sport, or anything else about improving your abilities.
Hanzo
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how much of your rowing is UT1 and UT2?

Post by Hanzo » December 1st, 2014, 6:32 am

For you experience rowers, how much of your weekly rowing is still in the UT1 and UT2 range? Up until I asked for advice on rowing and training on this forums, I have pretty much treated every rowing session as a race, and went all out for the best time. This forum gave me a lot of good advice, and I'm trying to set up a much smarter weekly schedule.

Once a week I do a hour worth of UT2 rowing, I do one or two 40 minutes sessions in my UT1 band, and do one or two 4x4 interval session. During the interval, I do 4 minutes in my TR range, then fall down to my UT2 band for 4 minutes, then do this 4 times.

Does this seem like a fairly balanced training program for someone trying mostly to stay in shape? How much of your weekly rowing is spent in the UT1 and 2 range?

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hjs
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Re: how much of your rowing is UT1 and UT2?

Post by hjs » December 1st, 2014, 7:34 am

Mine close to zero :D

Some ut1, seldom ut2. Mostly interval work. But I also seldom really race my training. Most is aimed at At.

Volume is 25/35 k a week, including wu and cd.

I do bike in daily life, that would be Ut2 work. Depending on weather and stuff. Maybe 50/75 k a week.

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gregsmith01748
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Re: how much of your rowing is UT1 and UT2?

Post by gregsmith01748 » December 1st, 2014, 10:08 am

I target 3 sessions of UT2/UT1 and 3 sessions of higher intensity per week. Since the higher intensity sessions include warmup and cool down, there is some additional time spent in UT2/UT1 in those as well. My goal was for 20% of my training time to be above AT and 80% below.

I was very strict about it last year when I was getting ready for the CRASH-Bs. Here is a summary of last November's training by HR band.

Image

I made a lot of progress between November and February last year and set PRs in most ranking distances following the program. I'm about a month behind that this year but trying to get back to that kind of consistency.
Greg
Age: 55 H: 182cm W: 90Kg
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rhr
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Re: how much of your rowing is UT1 and UT2?

Post by rhr » December 1st, 2014, 11:45 am

Hanzo it depends what you mean by "stay in shape". Does that mean looking better and / or being fitter?

Racing your training is never a good idea so changing that was a clever first step.

If your aerobic base is not strong and you're not about to go into racing season then UT2 rowing is helpful. The aerobic engine is built at those paces and at low intensity. Long rows will burn calories and improve your cardiovascular system. I.E. lose a bit of weight (if you don't shovel all the calories you burn eating food) and get "fitter".

Staying "in shape" is largely about food choices and diet. Add to that HIIT training and weights. Getting "fitter" is about building your aerobic engine doing low intensity training. They can be two different things.

My preference is similar to Henry - warm up and cool downs are UT2 (excluding faster strokes in the wu). Otherwise it's UT1 and above (which can drift into AT+) and speedwork (TR+ pace, often AN). I sometimes run in the week at UT2 / UT1 equivalent. My mileage (incl wu / cd) is around 55-60 kms / week.

Hanzo
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Re: how much of your rowing is UT1 and UT2?

Post by Hanzo » December 1st, 2014, 1:03 pm

I consider myself to be in fair shape, and more than anything else, I row to keep my condition and shape. However, I want to spend my time on the erg as smart as possible. With everything going on in life, I can only get 4 or maybe 5 sessions in a week, and spending that time improving and getting better. I think my goals are reachable; I would like my 2k time to be close to 7, and my 30 minute distance to be over 7500 meters. Currently I'm at 7:30 and 7300 meters. I think I am in fair shape, resting pulse at 51, body weight a bit on the high side but still in the normal aspect according to BMI. At 5 foot 5, I'm not built for erging, but I would still think my goals are pretty down to earth?

I have been doing a lot of UT2 and UT1 sessions, and actually got some sore muscles after a good UT2 sessions, so surely my body is reacting to the training. But I'm unsure how much of my time I should spend at doing this compared to TR and AN. Overall, I "think" my aerobic base is pretty decent, as I have been running and cycling several times a week for years, although with no goal, aim or form of measure on progress. I'm happy with the way I look, and the goal is not to lose fat or build muscles (at least not for the look), but to improve my time, show some progress to know I'm getting better and enjoy time spent on the erg.

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Re: how much of your rowing is UT1 and UT2?

Post by Bob S. » December 1st, 2014, 1:09 pm

You might check out the Pete Plan. A lot of folks have reported satisfaction with it and it has pretty good balance of the various zones.

Bob S.

rhr
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Re: how much of your rowing is UT1 and UT2?

Post by rhr » December 1st, 2014, 2:32 pm

OK - so what you're actually asking is "how much UT2 / UT1 rowing should I do to improve my 2k and 30' TT distance?".

You can improve your times by improving your technique. I looked at your video clips - have you been working more on your stroke?

Outside of that - as Bob mentioned you could look at the Pete Plan or the Wolverine Plan or Interactive Plan on the C2 website.

I stand corrected but think you will need to be above 7500m for 30' to achieve a 7 min / 2k. All the plans mentioned have quite a bit of UT2 / UT1 rowing. With a decent stroke and training your goals are achievable.

Hanzo
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Re: how much of your rowing is UT1 and UT2?

Post by Hanzo » December 1st, 2014, 5:00 pm

I have been working hard on my strokes, I should post a new video but I "think" it is much better. What I am after is insight into how other people train, and how I should set up my weekly rowing sessions to progress and move forward. I am not sure if I can get down to 7 min 2k, but I want to move closer than my current 7:38. Fare as I can recall, a 7 min 2k row is considered a very good achievement? If I can get under 7:30 I will be very happy, and if I get there I will consider moving my goals towards 7 minutes.

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Re: how much of your rowing is UT1 and UT2?

Post by Bob S. » December 1st, 2014, 6:04 pm

As a measure of the difficulty of that goal, take a look at the numbers that count - the wattages. A 7:38, 2k requires 233W; a 7:30 2k would be at 246W, less than a 6% increase in power, so definitely doable. At 7:00, you need 302W. That would require a power increase of almost 30% - >5 times as much. Possible, perhaps, but not if you are anywhere close to top shape already.

Bob S.

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Re: how much of your rowing is UT1 and UT2?

Post by Cyclingman1 » December 1st, 2014, 8:38 pm

Improving on 30 min from 7300 to 7500 is not too big of a jump - around 2:03 to 2:00 pace.
Improving on 2K from 7:38 to 7:00 is a big jump - from 1:54.5 to 1:45.

Those goals are not really consistent. The differential of 1:54.5 and 2:03 is 8.5 sec. Between 1:45 and 2:00 is 15 sec. If you want to be a 7 flat 2Ker, you need to point to near 8000 for 30min and around 18:20-30 for 5K.
JimG, Gainesville, Ga, 74, 76", 195lb. PBs:
66-69: .5,1,2,5,6,10K: 1:30.8 3:14.1 6:40.7 17:34.0 21:18.1 36:21.7 30;60;HM: 8337 16237 1:20:25
70-74: .5,1,2,5,6,10K: 1:33.3 3:19.5 6:58.1 17:55.3 21:32.6 36:41.9 30;60;HM: 8214 15353 1:23:02.5

Edward4492
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Re: how much of your rowing is UT1 and UT2?

Post by Edward4492 » December 1st, 2014, 10:47 pm

Jim is right as always, I was pulling 7800m in 30m, not really an all out effort, when I was at 6:59. In fact the only real difference between Jim and I is he likes his pain served up short, hard. and fast and I like the longer stuff. To get to your point I'm just starting on a "polarized" approach. I just started on a plan to do about 70-80% of my distance long and easy. I decided on a capped HR of 70% of max and a 20r. That puts me at 125 - 130 Hr, 20r, 2:08 pace. I'm doing four days a week, 10 to 12k. I really find the long stuff relaxing and rejuvenating, just try and slip into a groove and focus on perfect (hopefully!) strokes and trying to hang dead on the pace, rate, and HR. The other two days, hit it hard. Right now I'm doing longish hard stuff (1) x 5000m or (2) x 2500. I'll work that down to (3) x1000m and (6) x 500m as the races get closer. The long stuff helps with weight control, I'm a fence-sitting lightweight. I'm always right around 165, if I cut my volume the weight drifts up. So, as the theory goes the volume continues to build the aerobic base while not leaving you smoked. On the hard days, you're ready to rip it. I did a 5k yesterday, definitely not a PR attempt, but was getting progressively faster at each 1000m split and finished 10s off my PR (18:49) pace. Tired but not blown. My next big effort this week will be a challenge row. The crossfitters (we have a "box" attached to our gym), are having a comp on Dec13th. I learned my lesson last month, no more crossfit comps for me. But their first WOD (workout of the day) is a 15 minute row for max distance. I plan on shooting for a 15 minute 4000m total on my own. I have quite a few friends over there, I'm thinking a nice screen shot will get 'em goin'. And it's a perfect high intensity effort for me this week. You'd think I'd have learned not to challenge a bunch of young crossfitters, but if there's a weak link in their game it's endurance and pacing. I wouldn't dare challenge them to a 500m, too many strong brutes over there. 4k? It'll be interesting.

Getting back to the OP. hard to go wrong with the Pete Plan. A little bit of long, medium, and short stuff. Should work if you'rer looking for general fitness and improvement. To make huge improvements will require (IMO) a more focused, specialized approach to erg training. And probably at least 40 to 50k a week on the erg.

(I won't bore all of the regulars by re-hashing my recent training, but if the OP has an interest I'll post it up)

quickstepper
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Re: how much of your rowing is UT1 and UT2?

Post by quickstepper » December 1st, 2014, 10:57 pm

Edward4492 wrote: But their first WOD (workout of the day) is a 15 minute row for max distance. I plan on shooting for a 15 minute 4000m total on my own. I have quite a few friends over there, I'm thinking a nice screen shot will get 'em goin'. And it's a perfect high intensity effort for me this week. You'd think I'd have learned not to challenge a bunch of young crossfitters, but if there's a weak link in their game it's endurance and pacing. I wouldn't dare challenge them to a 500m, too many strong brutes over there. 4k? It'll be interesting.
If you find out what the final 4K results are I'd love to hear how the crossfitters did. Please post when if you get the results. FWIW I liked hearing about your crossfit challenge.
Thanks,
Marco

Edward4492
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Re: how much of your rowing is UT1 and UT2?

Post by Edward4492 » December 1st, 2014, 11:44 pm

I've got a lot of respect for the crossfit guys and girls. The best in the world, Rich Froning, is honestly an amazing specimen. I don't think it's a stretch to call him the "fittest man in the world". And of course very few crossfitters put in any serious time on the erg, for most it's a necessary evil. However, with that said,for a 58 year old guy to get the best of any 25 year old athlete who spends some time on the erg and at least knows how to row at some level; well I take great pleasure in that. At my age you cling to the smallest of victories even when you've stacked the deck with 51 cards facin' your way. Treachery and deceit are necessary and allowable tools when giving away 30 years to your opponent. We have another "fitness challenge" on the same day, that one will entail a 1000m row and the head of personal training challenged me on that one. 1000m is an interesting distance, a fit guy can survive it .It's almost fly n' die distance.He's probably goin' to get me by a second or two as he is extremely fit and rows a couple times a week. There's also another 32 yr old monster that weighs in a 228 lbs at six foot and used to row crew in college. He pulled a blindingly fast 1500m at 4:29 back in the day (that's 1:30 pace). I watched him get a 3:19 (not really super fast for his size and age). My PR is 3:21, I won't embarrasss myself but I'm gonna get smoked by these two guys. But it will be fun. Ya can't give away 60lbs and 30 years... not for 1000m!

It's nice being old. You really can't lose...I mean these youngsters are SUPPOSED to kick my ass! Shame on 'em if I come out on top. The only time it counts is in Boston on March 1st!

rhr
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Re: how much of your rowing is UT1 and UT2?

Post by rhr » December 2nd, 2014, 3:33 am

Hanzo wrote:I have been working hard on my strokes, I should post a new video but I "think" it is much better. What I am after is insight into how other people train, and how I should set up my weekly rowing sessions to progress and move forward. I am not sure if I can get down to 7 min 2k, but I want to move closer than my current 7:38. Fare as I can recall, a 7 min 2k row is considered a very good achievement? If I can get under 7:30 I will be very happy, and if I get there I will consider moving my goals towards 7 minutes.
Hanzo, looking at your previous video - you need to get your shoulders well ahead of your hips at the catch. In the video your shoulders were directly above your hips so the handle was far away from the chain guard at the catch. On the drive, as Bob mentioned, you break your elbows too early. I.E. engaging your arms long before your legs and back have done the bulk of the work. If you want to get tired quickly this is how to row. Your arms need to "hang" on the handle, not death grip it. This will allow you to whip the hands through after your legs and back have done 85% of the work. Why is all this important? You are 5'5 so lengthening your stroke is key. You're not rowing OTW so a slight overreach is ok at the catch. Plus rowing a 7 min / 2k equates to around 10W' per stroke (R30), perhaps slightly less if you rate up above 30. As things stood at your last video you were well below 10W' per stroke. Getting to around 7800m for 30 mins means having a quick drive and relaxed recovery, a more effortless stroke. If you keep heaving with your arms early in the stroke you limit drive speed, and by virtue of this, reduce your recovery time, all the while tiring yourself out. Your legs are your strongest muscles, use them fully.

Jim and Bob make valid points about the jump in Watts that you need. Personally I cannot say whether you will or won't make your targets until your technique is better. Once this is in place then training will have a bigger effect on times.

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Re: how much of your rowing is UT1 and UT2?

Post by KevJGK » December 2nd, 2014, 5:11 am

Hanzo wrote:What I am after is insight into how other people train, and how I should set up my weekly rowing sessions to progress and move forward.
As others have said, your 7 minute goal depends on where you are now and your potential for improvement. For some people 7 minutes is easy because their potential is much greater but for others it’s difficult because it’s close to the maximum.

It took me a year of focussed training to go from 7:15 to 7:00 following the Wolverine Plan. I did 6 sessions a week totalling 60K consisting of 3 Level 4 sessions and 1 each of Levels 1, 2 & 3. My 30’ PB was 7,639M

Best of luck with your goals but remember 'the journey is the reward'.
Kevin
Age: 57 - Weight: 187 lbs - Height: 5'10"
500m 01:33.5 Jun 2010 - 2K 06:59.5 Nov 2009 - 5K 19:08.4 Jan 2011

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