Ok, i row 5 evenings a week and last night i did 10k at about an average speed of 26/27 SPM on Damper 3. On this setting i did my PB 10k time, 45 mins 30 secs (not amazing i know).
Im 5"9 24, 72kg.
Now if i try and do 10k in a similar time on say damper 4-5 i physically ache more arms legs back etc...but i am slower which i know is easy to see as my splits are slower, on a lower stroke rate.
Now my question is this, i didnt ache last night, so is going faster worse for me than going slower but physically working more? I know this is a strange question but as a rowed faster i figured id check as i thought at 26/27 SPM i would have collapsed and not been able to finish.
What should i do , continue at higher stroke rate, or persevere on lower for overall physical workout?
Im gonna start taking protein shakes as well as im looking far too skinny with not enough muscle definition, opinions?
Speed vs Strength
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PaulS
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Stick with the lower drag and also work on lowering the rate a bit. One simple way to do that is to go strapless, and cover 10m per stroke (S10PS).
At your 10k pace of 2:15 that would have you rating about R22, but you will begin to shift the power production over more to your legs and the pace will begin to get quite a bit faster with less percieved effort. If at all possible get some good feedback on technique (video from C2 would be a good start).
Rowing is a Power/Endurance sport, but you are right at a natural lightwieght spec, so don't worry too much about trying to put on mass jsut for the sake of doing so, you have a long way to go before that would be a limiting factor.
Welcome to the fray.
At your 10k pace of 2:15 that would have you rating about R22, but you will begin to shift the power production over more to your legs and the pace will begin to get quite a bit faster with less percieved effort. If at all possible get some good feedback on technique (video from C2 would be a good start).
Rowing is a Power/Endurance sport, but you are right at a natural lightwieght spec, so don't worry too much about trying to put on mass jsut for the sake of doing so, you have a long way to go before that would be a limiting factor.
Welcome to the fray.
Erg on,
Paul Smith
www.ps-sport.net Your source for Useful Rowing Accessories and Training Assistance.
"If you don't want to know the answer, don't ask me the question."
Paul Smith
www.ps-sport.net Your source for Useful Rowing Accessories and Training Assistance.
"If you don't want to know the answer, don't ask me the question."
I'm not trying to put on mass to great degrees, its just since rowing 5 days a week nearly for 6-7 weeks and 3 times a week before that, im skinny, and want a bit more definition, so thought protein shake, just 1 afterwards would help with my arms /abs/back etc....
So you reckon lower damper, higher stroke is the way to go?
What is Strapless and R22 etc...? Is that bad?
So you reckon lower damper, higher stroke is the way to go?
What is Strapless and R22 etc...? Is that bad?
Low rate
Another thing to remember is that every time up and down the slide, you are spending energy to move your body weight back and forth, and unless you are 100% efficient at transfering that to the flywheel (which no one is) that is lost energy (great for your weight loss, not great for your erg score). So, in general, it is much more efficient (you get more bang for your buck) to row a particular pace at a slower rate. In other words, fewer but harder pulls, giving you a pace of 2:10 at 22 spm will be more efficient than more but lighter pulls still giving you a pace of 2:10 at 28 spm.
As Paul mentioned, I think that to get the harder pull at the slower rate, you will find yourself emphasizing the push of the legs more, which is a good thing.
As Paul mentioned, I think that to get the harder pull at the slower rate, you will find yourself emphasizing the push of the legs more, which is a good thing.
[img]http://www.c2ctc.com/sigs/img1225814673.png[/img]
Seth,
Rowing strapless means just pulling your feet out of the foot straps -- you row without anything holding down your feet. It's difficult at first, but greatly improves core (ab) strength. When I started, I used to row without straps for my warmup. As I got better at it, I worked up to rowing long pieces without straps.
R22 is just rating of 22 strokes per minute. There are some on this forum who disagree, but most in the rowing community would agree that for long pieces (15 minutes or more?) it's better to row at 20-22 spm. Higher ratings tend to be reserved for intervals of 10 minutes or less.
It's better to row at a lower damper setting than a high one, as you are more likely to pull your back at a high damper setting (particularly if you have less than perfect technique). Search for "drag factor" on this forum for more information.
Lastly, I think getting sore is part of the adaptation process. If you stress your body in a different way, it will get sore. I've been doing primarily low rating pieces (R22) for a year or so, and am now shifting to shorter, higher rating pieces, and my legs are sore!
Good luck!
Rowing strapless means just pulling your feet out of the foot straps -- you row without anything holding down your feet. It's difficult at first, but greatly improves core (ab) strength. When I started, I used to row without straps for my warmup. As I got better at it, I worked up to rowing long pieces without straps.
R22 is just rating of 22 strokes per minute. There are some on this forum who disagree, but most in the rowing community would agree that for long pieces (15 minutes or more?) it's better to row at 20-22 spm. Higher ratings tend to be reserved for intervals of 10 minutes or less.
It's better to row at a lower damper setting than a high one, as you are more likely to pull your back at a high damper setting (particularly if you have less than perfect technique). Search for "drag factor" on this forum for more information.
Lastly, I think getting sore is part of the adaptation process. If you stress your body in a different way, it will get sore. I've been doing primarily low rating pieces (R22) for a year or so, and am now shifting to shorter, higher rating pieces, and my legs are sore!
Good luck!
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johnlvs2run
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speed and strength, you need both
Your stroke is bogging down from the rating, and bogs down more as the damper gets higher.
I'm the same height as you and this morning rowed for an hour at 2:24 pace and 26.5 spm. My 10 pb was at 32-33 spm, which was the absolute minimum for me at that pace (1:56). Focus on keeping your stroke rating smooth and consistent. Don't worry about the rating, as long as you're not bogging down with your stroke.
26 spm is okay for easy rowing but is way too low for pb's. When you're going for a pb, keep the rating up as high as you can manage, to keep the fan from slowing down so much between strokes.
I'm the same height as you and this morning rowed for an hour at 2:24 pace and 26.5 spm. My 10 pb was at 32-33 spm, which was the absolute minimum for me at that pace (1:56). Focus on keeping your stroke rating smooth and consistent. Don't worry about the rating, as long as you're not bogging down with your stroke.
26 spm is okay for easy rowing but is way too low for pb's. When you're going for a pb, keep the rating up as high as you can manage, to keep the fan from slowing down so much between strokes.
bikeerg 75 5'8" 155# - 18.5 - 51.9 - 568 - 1:52.7 - 8:03.8 - 20:13.1 - 14620 - 40:58.7 - 28855 - 1:23:48.0
rowerg 56-58 5'8.5" 143# - 1:39.6 - 3:35.6 - 7:24.0 - 18:57.4 - 22:49.9 - 7793 - 38:44.7 - 1:22:48.9 - 2:58:46.2
rowerg 56-58 5'8.5" 143# - 1:39.6 - 3:35.6 - 7:24.0 - 18:57.4 - 22:49.9 - 7793 - 38:44.7 - 1:22:48.9 - 2:58:46.2
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PaulS
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No, lower the damper a bit and lower the rate, but work to maintain the pace.Seth wrote:I'm not trying to put on mass to great degrees, its just since rowing 5 days a week nearly for 6-7 weeks and 3 times a week before that, im skinny, and want a bit more definition, so thought protein shake, just 1 afterwards would help with my arms /abs/back etc....
So you reckon lower damper, higher stroke is the way to go?
What is Strapless and R22 etc...? Is that bad?
Search on S10PS and you will find quite a lto of information about why it may be benificial for you. Upping the rate for limitted benefit doesn't help much as sooner or later you will run out of rate to increase.
Erg on,
Paul Smith
www.ps-sport.net Your source for Useful Rowing Accessories and Training Assistance.
"If you don't want to know the answer, don't ask me the question."
Paul Smith
www.ps-sport.net Your source for Useful Rowing Accessories and Training Assistance.
"If you don't want to know the answer, don't ask me the question."
Bit confusing to be honest, im only a newbie, general consensus is 22 spm is better for longer?
Thing is my best 10k times have both been at like 28spm?
One thing, im really finding difficult now is sitting on the seat, i find im sitting at an angle and for 45min rows its killing me, im finding it really difficult to sit square and feel uncomfortable unless i sit right on the edge, near the flywheel , is this common?
strapless - how do you `pull` yourself back towards the fly wheel?
Thing is my best 10k times have both been at like 28spm?
One thing, im really finding difficult now is sitting on the seat, i find im sitting at an angle and for 45min rows its killing me, im finding it really difficult to sit square and feel uncomfortable unless i sit right on the edge, near the flywheel , is this common?
strapless - how do you `pull` yourself back towards the fly wheel?
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almostflipped
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First point, rowing does not build muscle. You can equate rowing to lifting a 40% weight for a few hundred reps. How many times have you heard of someone lifting that kind of weight to build mass? If you want definition, hit the weights (70% of max lift) and eat a healthy diet.Im gonna start taking protein shakes as well as im looking far too skinny with not enough muscle definition, opinions?
Second, protein does not build muscle. Lifting weights builds muscle and an adequate supply of protein will then help you recover. An adequate supply for someone your age and level would be around 1.5-2.0g/kg of weight. This can easily be accomplished through normal dietary habits without wasting money on suppliments.
EDIT: I have rethought some of what I originally typed. Yes rowing can build some muscle and definition, however it will likely take a greater level of intensity than what you are putting out. Drop the rating down to 16-20 as this will increase load per stroke and you will see a greater toning effect. You may also need to increase your time/pressure on the erg. Throw in a shorter piece (say 5x5') once a week where you are really cranking on it. Ultimately though, unless you intend on spending 10+ hours a week rowing you will need to lift.
The goal isn't so much to pull a personal best on every piece. The goal is to be consistent in your pieces over a month or two and then try for a personal best. By staying at a low rating you have more time to work on efficiency and develop power. Then when you take the rating back up for a personal best attempt you will go faster still.Thing is my best 10k times have both been at like 28spm?
Thanks.
Im only doing one protein shake as like i said, im dropping weight and dont want to keep doing it.
I figure the protein aint gonna do me no harm, but it will at least help my muscles to grow/stay same slightly , just as long as they dont diminish with the amout of cardio im doing, which is a lot, which is what im worried about.
My hardest thing i would say is keeping my stroke regular.
I did a 10k at 22spm, for as long as i could, i nearly died, i just cant handle it, i dont know why.
Im only doing one protein shake as like i said, im dropping weight and dont want to keep doing it.
I figure the protein aint gonna do me no harm, but it will at least help my muscles to grow/stay same slightly , just as long as they dont diminish with the amout of cardio im doing, which is a lot, which is what im worried about.
My hardest thing i would say is keeping my stroke regular.
I did a 10k at 22spm, for as long as i could, i nearly died, i just cant handle it, i dont know why.
It all has to do with technique...Seth wrote:
strapless - how do you `pull` yourself back towards the fly wheel?
1. After finish of stroke, lead with your arms out first, then...
2. Pivot forward at the hips as your arms "draw" you forward...
3. As your body reaches vertical, bend your knees and your arms and body will draw you forward to the catch.
If you finish well with good arm pull after a good leg drive and body pivot, your feet will be planted on the footplate and the above mentioned recovery should get your back to the catch with no problems. Except for test pieces, I now row all of my workouts strapless. Advice from a friend and it has improved my form tremendously.
Best regards,
Bryan
this helps teach you not to "rush the slide". In a boat, where this scenario is far worse, it checks down the boat every time you come up to the catch. Rushing also uses unnecessary muscles.Rocky wrote:Seth,
Rowing strapless means just pulling your feet out of the foot straps -- you row without anything holding down your feet. It's difficult at first, but greatly improves core (ab) strength. When I started, I used to row without straps for my warmup. As I got better at it, I worked up to rowing long pieces without straps.
hi, i'm also a newbie and of about the same size. i do mostly 5k workouts but yesterday did a 10k. most of my workouts are 1k easy, then 1k hard and repeat. sometimes it is 500m on/off (which i find to be tougher though my average speed is actually slower). yesterday i did 10k at exactly 2:22, i think it was 47:20. what intrigues me is the stroke rate:
my fast rate is about 1000m in 4:00-4:10. I try to keep it at around 2:00 most of the time, but sometimes it goes up to 2:10 and when i work really hard it goes down to 1:55. But my spm is 38 on a damper5 setting. When i go slow, i dont even pay attention(i just look at some chicks in the gym) but my spm is about 30-32.
i think if i tried to race 500m all out, i would do it in about 1:50 and spm would still be 38. i have no idea how to get it <1:40 for even a couple of strokes at a time.
i'll try to go to a lower spm by pulling harder and taking more time on the recovery(never tried this before because to me it seems like an equivalent of doing pushups rather than running or other aerobics), but somehow i predict that it will make me tired more quickly, because i'll have to generate more power to maintain the same pace, even though i'll do less work...
also ive tried damper10 setting(accidentally because someone else left the machine and i didnt know how to change it, it was a different machine) and i think i had an easier time to keep it at 2:00. but towards the end my forearms got incredibly sore. while on the lower setting it's always my thighs that prevent me from going faster.
also i found that when i started running i had incredible improvements from doing intervals on a treadmill, for example my latest ones were 8mph for 800m and then 11.6mph for 800m, or 8mph and 10mph at some incline like 4degrees. my legs were never very sore and i always had to quit because i ran out of breath eventually. i did intervals only about twice/wk so as not to injure myself, but eventually i injured myself. while on the erg i can do intervals every day without ever getting injured. but whether i work out hard or take a long rest i always become incredibly sore in my thighs, and my progress is incredibly slow.
my fast rate is about 1000m in 4:00-4:10. I try to keep it at around 2:00 most of the time, but sometimes it goes up to 2:10 and when i work really hard it goes down to 1:55. But my spm is 38 on a damper5 setting. When i go slow, i dont even pay attention(i just look at some chicks in the gym) but my spm is about 30-32.
i think if i tried to race 500m all out, i would do it in about 1:50 and spm would still be 38. i have no idea how to get it <1:40 for even a couple of strokes at a time.
i'll try to go to a lower spm by pulling harder and taking more time on the recovery(never tried this before because to me it seems like an equivalent of doing pushups rather than running or other aerobics), but somehow i predict that it will make me tired more quickly, because i'll have to generate more power to maintain the same pace, even though i'll do less work...
also ive tried damper10 setting(accidentally because someone else left the machine and i didnt know how to change it, it was a different machine) and i think i had an easier time to keep it at 2:00. but towards the end my forearms got incredibly sore. while on the lower setting it's always my thighs that prevent me from going faster.
also i found that when i started running i had incredible improvements from doing intervals on a treadmill, for example my latest ones were 8mph for 800m and then 11.6mph for 800m, or 8mph and 10mph at some incline like 4degrees. my legs were never very sore and i always had to quit because i ran out of breath eventually. i did intervals only about twice/wk so as not to injure myself, but eventually i injured myself. while on the erg i can do intervals every day without ever getting injured. but whether i work out hard or take a long rest i always become incredibly sore in my thighs, and my progress is incredibly slow.
I have experienced the same problem, but from a different stating point. I was able to row 30 to 60 minutes at a pace of between 2.12 and 2.17, at 20 to 22 SPM. My progress was minimal: I tried to increase the pace with the same rate, but it killed me every time. I just couldn't/can't sustain 10 meters per stroke at higher rates.
Since then I have changed my 'main' workouts from steady distance rows to 6K continuous intervals (1000 easy / 1000 hard -> repeat). It turned out (experimenting) that I could only sustain the 'hard' pieces at relatively high stroke rates (pace 2.00@28SPM). Less than 10 meters per stroke. Well, so be it.
Within a week I have managed to increase the pace during my "easy" – intervals from 2.30 to 2.18, whilst maintaining the pace for "hard" intervals at 2.00. So this seems to be working for me. I have actually improved my 6K PB from 26.20 (steady row) to 25.39 within a week, doing intervals (which is not the best way to do a PB, they say ).
I did some research on this forum and the UK forum and came across "SPI"
. No idea what it stand for, but it has something to do with watts per stroke. It turns out that my 2.15 @ 20SPM and my 2.00 @ 28 SPM are both about 7 watts per stroke. That has triggerd me to create a pace / rate chart with the paces for any given rate at SPI 7 and 7.5. It turns out that these rates and paces actually suit me perfectly 
(at the moment)!
Rate / pace@SPI 7.5 / pace@SPI 7.0
20 2.12.6 2.15.7
21 2.10.5 2.13.5
22 2.08.5 2.11.5
23 2.06.6 2.09.5
24 2.04.8 2.07.8
25 2.03.1 2.06.0
26 2.01.5 2.04.4
27 2.00.0 2.02.8
28 1.58.5 2.01.4
I realize that it's important to have sufficient power in my strokes, but it's also important to prevent that you blow yourself up. I expect that my power will increase over time. I'm more interested in endurance (for the time being).
To translate this to the original post: your could get used to lower rates by reducing the rate AND reducing the pace so that your watts per stroke remain about the same. Once you get used to the lower rates, increase the pace from there. My situation was just the other way around, but it came down to the same thing: I was not able to increase the power per stroke without blowing myself up.
Since then I have changed my 'main' workouts from steady distance rows to 6K continuous intervals (1000 easy / 1000 hard -> repeat). It turned out (experimenting) that I could only sustain the 'hard' pieces at relatively high stroke rates (pace 2.00@28SPM). Less than 10 meters per stroke. Well, so be it.
Within a week I have managed to increase the pace during my "easy" – intervals from 2.30 to 2.18, whilst maintaining the pace for "hard" intervals at 2.00. So this seems to be working for me. I have actually improved my 6K PB from 26.20 (steady row) to 25.39 within a week, doing intervals (which is not the best way to do a PB, they say
).I did some research on this forum and the UK forum and came across "SPI"
. No idea what it stand for, but it has something to do with watts per stroke. It turns out that my 2.15 @ 20SPM and my 2.00 @ 28 SPM are both about 7 watts per stroke. That has triggerd me to create a pace / rate chart with the paces for any given rate at SPI 7 and 7.5. It turns out that these rates and paces actually suit me perfectly (at the moment)!Rate / pace@SPI 7.5 / pace@SPI 7.0
20 2.12.6 2.15.7
21 2.10.5 2.13.5
22 2.08.5 2.11.5
23 2.06.6 2.09.5
24 2.04.8 2.07.8
25 2.03.1 2.06.0
26 2.01.5 2.04.4
27 2.00.0 2.02.8
28 1.58.5 2.01.4
I realize that it's important to have sufficient power in my strokes, but it's also important to prevent that you blow yourself up. I expect that my power will increase over time. I'm more interested in endurance (for the time being).
To translate this to the original post: your could get used to lower rates by reducing the rate AND reducing the pace so that your watts per stroke remain about the same. Once you get used to the lower rates, increase the pace from there. My situation was just the other way around, but it came down to the same thing: I was not able to increase the power per stroke without blowing myself up.
1969; 183cm; 90kg; Rowing PB’s 2008; 500-1:32 1000-3:19 2000-7:14 5000-19:23 10000-40:29 HM-1:28:46. Recent SB’s not worth mentioning yet :-)