fixing the seat on the erg

johnlvs2run · Post by **johnlvs2run** » March 31st, 2007, 7:30 pm

This morning I set plastic water (milk) crates on their side on each side of the railing to simulate a fixed seat, with the regular seat at the back, and layed a 3/4" thick piece of plywood on the top of them.

Then I rowed a few strokes this way which turned out very well. I was surprised to click down to 2:05 pace but noticed the rating was 37 spm. Then I did 2:05 pace again at 28-30 spm. I plan to keep using this fixed - but not connected - seat in my training. Surprisingly this seat is very stable, doesn't move at all and stays right in place, even though it is not connected to anything and sits on a very smooth and slippery concrete garage floor.

This fixed seat rowing minimizes the input from the legs, and thus helps greatly to focus on use of the back - which is what I need to develop the most for my rowing. I have noticed that using the back takes very little energy through distance, as compared to the much greater movement of the legs.

johnlvs2run · Post by **johnlvs2run** » March 31st, 2007, 8:16 pm

position of plastic crates
http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y41/jo ... seat1a.jpg

plywood on top - ready to row
http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y41/jo ... seat1b.jpg

another view - ready to row
http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y41/jo ... seat1b.jpg

johnlvs2run · Post by **johnlvs2run** » April 2nd, 2007, 9:18 pm

I did 10x 100m sprints with the fixed seat this morning.

The average was 1:54.3 pace, compared to 1:42.4 with the same mps and full motion yesterday. The erg moved backwards a few inches today, so there must have been a little movement of my legs that was causing this.

It will be interesting to keep practicing with the fixed seat, to see if the averages get faster, and if they get closer together.

Nosmo · Post by **Nosmo** » April 3rd, 2007, 3:34 pm

Why not just keep the legs straight and row arms and back only, like one may do in a boat? Am I missing something?

PaulS · Post by **PaulS** » April 3rd, 2007, 3:48 pm

Nosmo wrote:Why not just keep the legs straight and row arms and back only, like one may do in a boat? Am I missing something?

Bob S. · Post by **Bob S.** » April 3rd, 2007, 8:27 pm

Nosmo wrote:Why not just keep the legs straight and row arms and back only, like one may do in a boat? Am I missing something?

Nosmo,

It was my impression that this was all about using slides and having the seat fixed relative to the ground. The legs would be pushing the erg (mounted on the wheels of the slides) away from the fixed seat.

Bob S.

Nosmo · Post by **Nosmo** » April 3rd, 2007, 8:56 pm

Bob S. wrote:
Nosmo wrote:Why not just keep the legs straight and row arms and back only, like one may do in a boat? Am I missing something?
Nosmo,

It was my impression that this was all about using slides and having the seat fixed relative to the ground. The legs would be pushing the erg (mounted on the wheels of the slides) away from the fixed seat.

Bob S.

OK, but why would that minimize the input from the legs and emphasis the arms and back? I still don't get it.

Bob S. · Post by **Bob S.** » April 4th, 2007, 12:25 am

Nosmo wrote:
Bob S. wrote:
Nosmo wrote:Why not just keep the legs straight and row arms and back only, like one may do in a boat? Am I missing something?
Nosmo,

It was my impression that this was all about using slides and having the seat fixed relative to the ground. The legs would be pushing the erg (mounted on the wheels of the slides) away from the fixed seat.

Bob S.
OK, but why would that minimize the input from the legs and emphasis the arms and back? I still don't get it.

On reading back over the messages again, I realize that there wasn't any reference to slides so my impression was probably offbase. In that case, I don't see the point of it either.

What I was thinking about was the idea that a fixed seat and a rolling erg might have somewhat the same feel as rowing a gooney-rigged shell, i.e. a fixed seat, sliding stretcher/rigger boat like Virus sells. This was brought up on another thread and I got the two threads twisted in my mind. (And came up with a yarn??)

Bob S.

johnlvs2run · Post by **johnlvs2run** » April 5th, 2007, 2:01 am

Nosmo wrote:Why not just keep the legs straight and row arms and back only, like one may do in a boat? Am I missing something?

I just got back from Mexico. What what a drive, what a trip. My face hurts.

A tooth was pulled so there is pressure from swelling and the shots. Otherwise, all went well and I had a good time. As a result, I didn't get to exercise yesterday or today (Wednesday) but will do so in the morning.

Interestingly, my hamstrings have been sore from doing the fixed seat sprints two days ago. There is a slight soreness in my back, which I only noticed tonight, but not as much as my hamstrings. The soreness is probably greater from my not being able to exercise the last couple of days.

As to your question, I have quite some time ago rowed with (trying to keep) my legs straight on the regular seat. However the seat does move in that scenario, and thus the legs do contribute quite a bit to the stroke, even while keeping them as straight as possible. Having the seat fixed results in, having the seat fixed

which is not possible to have when it's moving.

johnlvs2run · Post by **johnlvs2run** » April 5th, 2007, 2:04 am

Doing this exercise sure does open up the realization of how much the torso and arms contribute to the drive and rowing stroke as a whole.

I can imagine that Bob S, Rich C and others get a tremenduously greater range and proportion of power from their torso and arms than I do.

Nosmo · Post by **Nosmo** » April 5th, 2007, 12:57 pm

John Rupp wrote: As to your question, I have quite some time ago rowed with (trying to keep) my legs straight on the regular seat. However the seat does move in that scenario, and thus the legs do contribute quite a bit to the stroke, even while keeping them as straight as possible. Having the seat fixed results in, having the seat fixed which is not possible to have when it's moving.

I find this surprising. I wonder if your differentiating your hips from your pelvis. I'm going to try this and see what the difference is between straight legs and fixed seat.

johnlvs2run · Post by **johnlvs2run** » April 7th, 2007, 11:40 pm

Nosmo wrote:I'm going to try this and see what the difference is between straight legs and fixed seat.

What results did you get, and how did you fix the seat?

I got 1/2 way through construction of a permanent wood frame attached to the erg, with a moveable fixed seat on top, i.e. the seat can easily be placed on and removed. Then I got another idea that will be easier for more people to use, and with the regular seat. I will post more about this when it's working.

In the meantime I used the plastic crates this morning for the 10x 100m again. My objective was to work into them easily but they turned out to be faster than before. My average turned out to be 1:53.3 pace, a full second faster on the pace.

PaulS · Post by **PaulS** » April 8th, 2007, 9:51 am

John,

Surely a pair of judiciously placed C-clamps would do the trick. However the goals behind doing this still remain a mystery. Why in the world are you bothering to regress a bit over a century in the evolution of the rowing stroke?

There are some old texts that describe fixed seat technique quite well, and it can be quite powerful, as it still requires a pivot at the hips and the use of the hamstrings. Of course the practitioners were known to wear blisters on their bums and resorted to using a bit of lard to aid in aleviating the friction that would cause that unpleasantness.

These days we still use "Body over" rowing (sometimes called "flat slide", since the legs remain extended as they would be at the finish) as a bit of an easy warming up progression. The small movement of the seat is not so much caused by the use of the legs but simply the motion it takes as the pelvis rocks on the sitz bones.

johnlvs2run · Post by **johnlvs2run** » April 8th, 2007, 11:02 am

Hi Paul,

My concern about using clamps would be any possible damage to the railing. Do you feel they would be safe to use?

Warren Berger suggested the use of long stainless steel hose clamps threaded through pieces of vinyl tubing for protection, but I'm not sure what this would do to the railing.

My reason for doing the fixed seat rowing is simply as a supplemental exercise. My leg drive is by far the strongest part of my stroke. Isolating this out can allow me to focus more directly on rowing with the rest of my body, i.e. back, torso, and arms. I'm not doing that much of it, just enough to get used to the exercise and then back to regular rowing.

I would love to see what the old texts say but don't have any access to them. Would you happen to have links?

PaulS · Post by **PaulS** » April 8th, 2007, 2:01 pm

John Rupp wrote:Hi Paul,

My concern about using clamps would be any possible damage to the railing. Do you feel they would be safe to use?

Warren Berger suggested the use of long stainless steel hose clamps threaded through pieces of vinyl tubing for protection, but I'm not sure what this would do to the railing.

My reason for doing the fixed seat rowing is simply as a supplemental exercise. My leg drive is by far the strongest part of my stroke. Isolating this out can allow me to focus more directly on rowing with the rest of my body, i.e. back, torso, and arms. I'm not doing that much of it, just enough to get used to the exercise and then back to regular rowing.

I would love to see what the old texts say but don't have any access to them. Would you happen to have links?

Indeed, make sure that whatever you try does not damage the track or railing, could make for a bumpy ride.

I'd suggest that if you are attempting to improve your Erging technique overall, that isolating things in this way is not the way forward, as the stroke cycle is a fluid and continuous action requiring the coordination of all the minor motions into a seamless action. Removing the legs from the stroke simply defeats the purpose in learning to use them in coordination with the rest of the muscles involved.

That's the problem with "old texts", they don't have "links".

Any of the Steve Fairbairn books on Rowing or A Textbook of Oarsmanship, might be some good titles for you to look for, though neither mentions the C2 Ergometer, as they were written about a century prior to it's introduction. Though there were some very creative rowing machines available even at that time, they did not seem to come into the picture quite like they do today.