Concept2 Forum

My wife tells me I'm training too hard. I'm hoping that folks with knowledge here will share it and let me know if I'm overdoing things or not...
About me: 43 years old, male, 5'8", 11st 5lb. I take an ACE inhibitor for slightly high bp but my GP tells me it's under control and I should exercise 'as normal'. Not training for anything in-particular; I just want to be relatively fit and shed half a stone or so.

I exercise at a local gym to one of two programs, depending on the day:
#1: 1hr 15m of steady-state, mixed CV (including Concept 2 rower). I always train to a HR using my Polar monitor and manage to stay at 150(+/-2) for the whole workout.

#2: Warm-up (3m),
12 reps of Intervals on C2,
cool down (3m)
Intervals = 1 min hard + total rest until HR = 125, which I think is something like the Gibala flavour(?). I do this 2, maybe three times per week.

On the intervals I feel like I'm going very hard, but not flat out; if I go completely flat then I start fading badly towards the end of the minute. After the first few reps my HR is peaking in the low 170s by the end of the minute. For the first few reps I'm pulling a 1:44ish split time but by the end I'm struggling to maintain this and the last few reps I'm struggling to meet 1:50 projected split time (per stroke) by the end of the minute.

I've been doing this for about 6wks now (I've been doing steady-state as above for much longer) during which my times have dropped and distance rowed increased. Feels really horrible, but just about do-able to me, which is what I thought intervals were all about. Thoughts, advice, comments would all be appreciated. Abuse will get a considered hearing.

Intervals are for anaerobic high-intensity training just before a race, after plenty of endurance work, so that we can take a rest. Three minutes is not nearly enough warm-up for such fast stuff, 20 would be better, and you don't need to do 12, 3 or 4 would be OK.

Your aerobic training looks fine. This can be done using HR as overall monitor and Watts as stroke by stroke guide. For endurance work an initial level could be 1.5 - 2 W/kg fit weight, which is (for 5'8) around 70 kg, so 105-140 W. Update W (long-term) as to HR. Rating 20 should be enough for this, but it's not critical. 70% of HR range (rest to max, i.e. Karvonen) is enough to get Lactate going - so about 145 if you have range 60-180.

In aerobic rowing we keep the overall intensity down but the stroke solid. This lets us go longer, do more work and use muscle; and also simulates a race stroke with appropriate speeds and coordination at all ratings. Then, if you want to race or do some anaerobic work, just up the rating (even double), the stroke itself is already there.

You can see HR bands and lots of programs here:
http://indoorsportservices.co.uk/training/interactive

If you have to slow down during an interval session you start out to fast. You always (90% of the time) should be able to do the last rep the fastest.
In itself there is nothing wrong with doing lots of interval work, but to fast will bit you in the longer run.

Thank you for replies and useful information.

I'm interested to hear the comment that you should be able to do the last interval rep faster than the preceding ones. Can you tell me any more about that? And the warning the 'too fast' intervals will come back to bite?

I notice that my 1m splits - that I'm struggling to maintain - are much (much) slower than 500m times posted around here. Due to smaller gains I'm already starting to feel like I'm not far away from my ultimate limit - does this put me in the 'non-responder' category?

I've been habitually setting the damper to 10 (the machine tells me that is a df of 195) just because it seems like the thing to do. Reading here it seems like the damper setting is more complex than I thought and I'm only getting more confused the more I learn! Is it safe to say that for intervals it would be sensible to use a lower df to protect my back?

pdduggan wrote:Thank you for replies and useful information.

I'm interested to hear the comment that you should be able to do the last interval rep faster than the preceding ones. Can you tell me any more about that? And the warning the 'too fast' intervals will come back to bite?

I notice that my 1m splits - that I'm struggling to maintain - are much (much) slower than 500m times posted around here. Due to smaller gains I'm already starting to feel like I'm not far away from my ultimate limit - does this put me in the 'non-responder' category?

I've been habitually setting the damper to 10 (the machine tells me that is a df of 195) just because it seems like the thing to do. Reading here it seems like the damper setting is more complex than I thought and I'm only getting more confused the more I learn! Is it safe to say that for intervals it would be sensible to use a lower df to protect my back?

Say you do 12 x 1 min on/off. And you aim for 145 average. Start out around 1.46 do the first 6 at that pace, from there slowly go faster per rep. And see what you have left for number 12, which should below the previous 11, rating should also be up.
Drag, done people like high drag, but most rowers use much less. This keeps the stroke much more lively. 110/140 is roughly normal. 195 is very high for the paces you are using and will be a very slow and laboured stroke. Changing thst will take some time, your drive needs to be a lot faster.
How fast some one is depends on a lot. Fitness, strenght, sex, height, lean weight etc. How you respond is hard to say without knowing your background.
If you always train hard, you can,t recover enough. You can only train as hard as you can recover.

Given your height and weight you should definitely not be using the maximum drag factor. Thankfully you haven't done any damage to your back yet. The recommended drag factor for a lightweight male is more in the 115-135 range. You will need to accelerate your drive speed (legs) to maintain your pace at a lower DF, it will feel strange to start with given that you have been effectively pulling a tugboat across a gravel path at 195! However, once you're used to a lower DF you may find you don't tire nearly as quickly and will be able to maintain a higher pace for all of the reps. Some on here like the method of pulling a stroke every 10 meters covered.

So it's likely you fall into the "too high a DF and poor technique associated with that" category. So not necessarily in the non-responder group. Watch rowing technique videos and remember full leg extension, then engage your back and finally hands. A high DF usually means you engage your back / arms far too early in order to get the flywheel moving. You have a solid cardio base - would be surprised if you weren't able to maintain a more consistent pace across all the intervals on a lower DF - assuming your rest periods are 1 minute or more.

Intervals are for anaerobic high-intensity training just before a race, after plenty of endurance work, so that we can take a rest. Three minutes is not nearly enough warm-up for such fast stuff, 20 would be better, and you don't need to do 12, 3 or 4 would be OK.

I do a lot of intervals to help break up training and make it easier for sessions to be done with others. Don't think they have to be always anaerobic, even at high intensity - they can be a way of staying aerobic for longer periods of time, at a higher intensity, than is possible with a continuous piece. For example tonight I did 18x 1'/1'r all at sub 1:40 (2k-2) with last fastest and mostly at <85% HRR. We (at my gym) also like a 500m/1'r starting say at 1:50 and each a second faster to failure (maybe to 1:38) It is a good way off teaching the body and mind to go and stay faster especially if training for a fast 500, 1k or 2k piece.
Intervals can also break up the "monotony" of a long piece - say 6x 10'/1'r rather than a straight one hour at 70-75% HRR.

I agree that DF around 120-130 would probably be best and that fastest last is the best strategy so start with that goal in mind for your interval sessions.
Worth trying longer warm up and cool down. I do minimum 2km @2:15 both sides of nearly any session and there are many doing 20min w/u.

Sounds like your training is ok - some good sessions and I don't think you are overdoing it.

I take an ACE inhibitor for slightly high bp but my GP tells me it's under control and I should exercise 'as normal'. Not training for anything in-particular; I just want to be relatively fit and shed half a stone or so.

I am on BP medication and well controlled (in the normal range) and there is no reason that I am aware of to limit training - there are good arguments for continuing to train hard.
Good luck

Thanks again for replies.

'Tug boat across a gravel drive'; the first few strokes certainly feel like that! I will start to try lower dfs and try and get some advice on technique. I know my technique is poor but I've been avoiding doing anything about it out of fear that trying to put it right will slow down any progress in the short-term (I know!).

With a lower df will my stroke rate decrease? For the intervals I'm at about 32-34 at the moment and 30 for the steady-state work.

This

For example tonight I did 18x 1'/1'r all at sub 1:40 (2k-2) with last fastest and mostly at <85% HRR. We (at my gym) also like a 500m/1'r starting say at 1:50 and each a second faster to failure (maybe to 1:38)

sounds brutal and, frankly impossible (at those HRs) to me at the moment. Respect. I'm hearing that I need to spend longer on warm-up.

With a lower df will my stroke rate decrease?

Yes, if you use the lower DF to improve technique: pulling a longer stroke with more work in it, you can drop the rating for the same Power output. Odd as it may sound, the key to technique is the recovery sequence: hands away, swing forward, then lift the knees. This puts us on our feet and in a strong position for the catch so that the legs can do plenty of work (about 70% of the total).

To see this happen you need to analyze what you're doing in terms of Watts and Rating. Ergometers measure power, so it's easy to see. At age 43 I'd expect you can do at least what I do at 74: pull a 7W' stroke at rate 20, i.e' 140W. If that gets you sweating and HR into UT2 band after say 8-10 minutes warm-up, fine. If not, increase stroke work and/or rating til it does.

Never bust a gut, you've only got one. Let the work increase on its own as you get fitter and as your technique improves.

pdduggan wrote:
With a lower df will my stroke rate decrease? For the intervals I'm at about 32-34 at the moment and 30 for the steady-state work.

.

No, not out of itself, its you who decides the rating.
You know use a typical gym stroke, going up and down the rail on a 1 on 1 motion. It should be more 1 for the drive and 2 for the recovery. So a firm, quick drive and a controlled recovery.
The difference between short interval work and steady state is for most a lot bigger. Wth that rate 30 and high drag you make it possible to use that drag and not overly burden your back.
Simply start experimenten a bit, don,t worry about loosing fitness, that does not happen all of a sudden.
The only time you need a higher drag is for pure sprinting, here the speed of movement is one of the limiting factors. On longer work that is never the case. Lower drag is always enough. Fitness is the weakest link for everybody.

Sorry, but to clarify; 'rating' = split time?

pdduggan wrote:Sorry, but to clarify; 'rating' = split time?

No rating equals the stroke rate, i.e. the number of strokes per minute.

Thanks.

hjs wrote:

pdduggan wrote:
With a lower df will my stroke rate decrease? For the intervals I'm at about 32-34 at the moment and 30 for the steady-state work.

.

No, not out of itself, its you who decides the rating.
You know use a typical gym stroke, going up and down the rail on a 1 on 1 motion. It should be more 1 for the drive and 2 for the recovery. So a firm, quick drive and a controlled recovery.
The difference between short interval work and steady state is for most a lot bigger. Wth that rate 30 and high drag you make it possible to use that drag and not overly burden your back.


What Henry (hjs) is referring to above is this - when you row at a very high drag factor the time it takes to do the drive and the recovery is almost equal. I.E. the ratio is close to 1:1. With low DF rowing the ratio should be closer to the ideal - Drive 1 / Recovery 2. For example, if you row at a rate (SPM) of 20 the full stroke should take 3 seconds (20 strokes per minute = 60 seconds). The split for that 3 seconds should be 1 second drive and 2 seconds recovery. That's why long steady state rows are done at low rate and lower drag factor - you get more recovery time. If you do a steady state piece at 20 SPM you spend 20 secs per minute driving and 40 seconds per minute recovering - a good recipe to ensure that you don't tire out too quickly. For very short anaerobic sprints this doesn't matter - you go all out and the limiting factor is rate (SPM).

For intervals recovery time still matters - at a high DF you will tire yourself out in the latter part of the workout. As evidenced by your decline from 1:44 to 1:50. The principle of 1 drive / 2 recovery also applies to these type of workouts. However, it is easier to pull faster strokes at a higher DF (relative to the DF used for long steady state) when rowing at a higher rate (SPM) and still maintain the 1/2 ratio. Why? The drag factor setting simply controls the amount of air allowed into the flywheel (resistance) - if you are rowing faster with a higher stroke rate the flywheel doesn't slow down as much and you can accelerate it more easily with your next stroke. That's why workouts involving higher stroke rates (shorter intervals) can be done with a higher DF than long steady state. With the proviso that your back can tolerate the workload at a given DF.

pdduggan wrote:I know my technique is poor but I've been avoiding doing anything about it out of fear that trying to put it right will slow down any progress in the short-term (I know!).

Very bad approach. Getting the proper technique should be your top priority early on - before bad habits get too engrained. Once that happens, it is extremely difficult to correct them. Progress? It depends on what you mean by it. Learn to row properly first. That would be real progress. It will take awhile to get used to using effective technique, but it should eventually show up as a solid improvement of your scores. The drive should be quick and hard, starting with the legs, finishing with the arms, and using the back to bridge the other movements. The legs should be straight before the elbows start to bend. You don't want the weak arm muscles to have to compete with the much stronger muscles of the legs. The recovery is just the reverse, slow and relaxed, starting with getting the arms away past the knees before the knees start to come up.

Other points are body swing, about 15 degrees each way, and having your shins vertical at the start of the drive. Don't grip tight with your hands; just use the fingers as hooks.

With regard to stroke rate, at 5'8" your stroke rate would naturally be just a bit higher than those you see reported on this forum. A lot of folks will do their long, slow distance stuff at around 20 spm. You might find that 22-24 would work well. A typical 2k time trial is done in the low 30s. The high 30s might be better for you.

DF? As others have said, the 120-130 range should be fine for most workouts.

Bob S.