Slides Attachment> What Should I Expect?

HammerHead Sk8r · Post by **HammerHead Sk8r** » September 11th, 2006, 4:48 pm

Ok, I have ordered some technique tapes (because I know my technique is flawed) and row workouts and one of the suggestions from the professional was to purchase the slide attachments for my C2 Model D.

For those of you rowing with your C2 on the slides what should I expect from them and what are the pros and cons (if any)?

Secondly, in looking at the video of the Crash-b's the C2's all are fixed. Is there any challenge transitioning from the slides to a fixe C2 in competition? (I'm contemplating trying to do a CrashB race next year as I learn more and get better...for now my 2000m time is not competitive).

Thanks again for everyone's responses that I have gotten over the last month or two on the othe stuff I don't know!!!

PaulS · Post by **PaulS** » September 11th, 2006, 5:45 pm

Make sure the floor you are going to set them up on is level. If it is not level, each slide unit must be leveled by using small shims under the feet.

Alternating your workouts between on slides and off, with the goal of being equally comfortable in both situations will iron out a lot of technical issues. When approaching a competition date, it's better to practice on the ground, since that will be how the competition Ergs will be set up.

Pay attention to Stroke Rate when on the Slides, the tendency is to increase the rate, producing a faster pace for the same Drive profile. It will even out over the long term but can give a false impression that some advantage is gained by being on the slides, when what is really happening is the masking of a technical flaw, generally referred to as rushing the recovery, which incurs a greater penalty on the Grounded Erg in the form of absorbing the bodies momentum at the catch, though it is also penalized on the Slides as the ratio is reduced when the recovery time is shortened. (It's severly penalized when in a boat by creating a greater fluctuation of the hull speed about the system speed, but that may not be important to you.)

The bungees will likely be adjusted properly when you get them, but check that the Erg, when pulled all the way to either end of the slides and released, settles back to a centered position.

HammerHead Sk8r · Post by **HammerHead Sk8r** » September 11th, 2006, 5:54 pm

Thanks! This is good stuff.

Good news for me the floor of my basement is level. (The former owner of my house was a building contractor who built the house and was known for being crazy about being plum, level, square, straight, etc).

This is good stuff.........This rowing thing is aDDictive.

Francois · Post by **Francois** » September 11th, 2006, 9:21 pm

I have been on slides for the past two months and tonight I did a 4 x 1K with the erg grounded. The first impression was as if the DF had been raised to the max. I also found that it was harder to delay the opening of the back and that it was more stressful for those muscles between the shoulder blades. Nonetheless, by the end of the workout it felt quite natural.
IMHO get the slides, they are worth it!

Now, a question for Paul: When doing hard intervals on slides, how can you get quickly to your target pace ? I can pull very hard on the first stroke but I have to take a very long recovery do avoid bumping the slides on the stoppers; so it takes for ever to get up to speed!

Thanks,

Francois

johnlvs2run · Post by **johnlvs2run** » September 11th, 2006, 11:42 pm

The fan and drive need time to get up to speed, so the first few recoveries need to be shorter.

Otherwise a lot of time and energy is going to be lost in recoveries, while the the fan is taking longer to get up to top speed.

The remedy is to cut the length of the recoveries way down for the first few strokes, this way delaying the recovery time until the fan is going much faster by the 3rd, 4th, and 5th strokes.

By doing this, you can usually get to top speed by the 4th or 5th stroke on the slides, as well as the regular erg.

johnlvs2run · Post by **johnlvs2run** » September 11th, 2006, 11:45 pm

The first recovery stroke comes up 1/4 of the way from the back, recovery from the second stroke comes up 1/2 way from the back, recovery from the 3rd stroke comes up 3/4 of the way from the back and then full strokes from then on.

PaulS · Post by **PaulS** » September 12th, 2006, 8:58 am

Francois wrote:I have been on slides for the past two months and tonight I did a 4 x 1K with the erg grounded. The first impression was as if the DF had been raised to the max. I also found that it was harder to delay the opening of the back and that it was more stressful for those muscles between the shoulder blades. Nonetheless, by the end of the workout it felt quite natural.
IMHO get the slides, they are worth it!

Now, a question for Paul: When doing hard intervals on slides, how can you get quickly to your target pace ? I can pull very hard on the first stroke but I have to take a very long recovery do avoid bumping the slides on the stoppers; so it takes for ever to get up to speed!

Thanks,

Francois

If you are using Slides a lot, you are having to train your body to recover to the catch position by using more muscles than on the grounded Erg, where the momentum of your body can be a large assist during compression. This is the cause of the 'heavy' feel when making the change, and is due to the seat accelerating into the catch rather than deccelerating smoothly. This is a technical flaw that the slides will cover up, and by alternating your workouts you will clear it up in both situations.

For starting out on hard intervals it is important to make sure that the movement of the Erg is close to the same range on that first drive as it is when you have settled into your usual rhythm. The seat should move very little relative to the floor, even on the first few strokes. When rowing along normally, make a note of where the slides are at the finish, they should be much closer to the ends of the slide you are looking at (the far end under the flywheel). If on your first drive, you are not getting it to the same place there will be that much less room to the other end for you to draw the Erg back under yourself, causing a bounce off the back end of the Slides, which is difficult to recover from quickly.

Johns suggestion of taking a few shorter, gradually lengthening strokes would be a reasonable short term work around, and you could slowly work toward reducing the number of shortened strokes required as you gain control over the Erg movement so full length strokes can be done right from the start.

One thing to remember during the short strokes is that the displayed pace doesn't really get the result we might think.

For example:
If your first stroke produced a 2:00 pace and was R30 and the second stroke produced pace 1:50 and was R45, the avg pace is not 1:55 because the strokes were not of equal time. So it may well be better to go ahead and take the longer more powerful stroke overall.

johnlvs2run · Post by **johnlvs2run** » September 12th, 2006, 3:06 pm

PaulS wrote:If your first stroke produced a 2:00 pace and was R30 and the second stroke produced pace 1:50 and was R45, the avg pace is not 1:55 because the strokes were not of equal time.

Interesting concept. Basically what you are referring to is the length of the stroke, i.e. a long stroke at 2:00 pace takes a longer "time" than a shorter stroke at 2:00 pace. Whoa, sounds complicated.

Now if both the strokes are at 30 spm but one is long and the other short, I wonder what the difference would be, or the same. If the 2:00 pace stroke was "short" (but at 30 spm) and the 1:50 pace stroke was long, also at 30 spm, would the average then be faster, for example 1:53.

So it may well be better to go ahead and take the longer more powerful stroke overall.

I want to clarify my suggestion.

1) The first stroke is normal, i.e. long. Then the first recovery, from the back of the slide is 1/4 of the distance going forward.

2) The second stroke is again a long, full stroke through the finish. The result of this (spending more time on the drive) is the speed of the drive has a chance to "catch up" to the speed of recovery. Then the second recovery, from the back of the slide, is 1/2 of the distance going forward.

3) The third stroke is again a long, full stroke through the finish, and the third recovery, from the back of the slide, is 3/4 of the distance going forward.

The drive is slower at the start and takes a few strokes to get up to speed. There is no resistance on recovery, so it is always the same. Thus more time is spent on the drive so it is able to catch up (and the erg not hit the end of the slides etc). This is done by taking full strokes on the drive, and by shortening the recovery, from the finish position.

The object is to spend more time on the drive vs recovery for the first few strokes, and after this the drive and fan are up to the speed one is aiming for.

PaulS · Post by **PaulS** » September 12th, 2006, 4:55 pm

John Rupp wrote:
PaulS wrote:If your first stroke produced a 2:00 pace and was R30 and the second stroke produced pace 1:50 and was R45, the avg pace is not 1:55 because the strokes were not of equal time.
Interesting concept. Basically what you are referring to is the length of the stroke, i.e. a long stroke at 2:00 pace takes a longer "time" than a shorter stroke at 2:00 pace. Whoa, sounds complicated.

Now if both the strokes are at 30 spm but one is long and the other short, I wonder what the difference would be, or the same. If the 2:00 pace stroke was "short" (but at 30 spm) and the 1:50 pace stroke was long, also at 30 spm, would the average then be faster, for example 1:53.

No, nothing complicated at all (in the real world) since a R30 will be 2 seconds per stroke, no matter what the ratio is. Perhaps you are trying to be funny, rather than just to be trying.

John Rupp wrote:
So it may well be better to go ahead and take the longer more powerful stroke overall.

I want to clarify my suggestion.

1) The first stroke is normal, i.e. long. Then the first recovery, from the back of the slide is 1/4 of the distance going forward.

2) The second stroke is again a long, full stroke through the finish. The result of this (spending more time on the drive) is the speed of the drive has a chance to "catch up" to the speed of recovery. Then the second recovery, from the back of the slide, is 1/2 of the distance going forward.

3) The third stroke is again a long, full stroke through the finish, and the third recovery, from the back of the slide, is 3/4 of the distance going forward.

The drive is slower at the start and takes a few strokes to get up to speed. There is no resistance on recovery, so it is always the same. Thus more time is spent on the drive so it is able to catch up (and the erg not hit the end of the slides etc). This is done by taking full strokes on the drive, and by shortening the recovery, from the finish position.

The object is to spend more time on the drive vs recovery for the first few strokes, and after this the drive and fan are up to the speed one is aiming for.

Ah, back to the John we all know.
How do you propose taking a longer Drive when shortening the recovery, in both time and length? It just doesn't add up.

The flywheel is also moving to a higher and higher average RPM with each drive, so the Drive is going to be shorter in time on each subsequent stroke. The first stroke will be considerably longer in time only because teh flywheel must spin up from 0, but it will be quite close to it's regular RPM range after the 2nd or 3rd stroke, especially under the circumstances being discussed here (short, fast intervals).

Now stay calm and don't lash out, it will be healthier for you, and I know you like to make healthy choices.

johnlvs2run · Post by **johnlvs2run** » September 12th, 2006, 5:53 pm

PaulS wrote:How do you propose taking a longer Drive when shortening the recovery, in both time and length? It just doesn't add up.

Let's say a rower is going at 30 spm, and the drive direction is 45 percent of the stroke, within the range of top competitive rowers. This means the drive direction takes .9s and the recovery direction takes 1.1s. Now on the first stroke this is messed up. So let's say the drives and recoveries on the first three strokes are as follows:

1 ... 1.8 + 2.0 = 3.8s
2 ... 1.4 + 1.7 = 3.0s
3 ... 1.1 + 1.2 = 2.3s
4 ... 0.9 + 1.1 = 2.0s

Now if we take 1/4, 1/2, and 3/4ths recoveries, we get this:

1 ... 1.8 + 0.3 = 2.1s
2 ... 1.2 + 0.6 = 1.8s
3 ... 1.0 + 0.9 = 1.9s
4 ... 0.9 + 1.1 = 2.0s

These are long full drives through the finish every stroke, along with reductions in recoveries. The difference for the 3 strokes is 9.1 vs 5.8 seconds, a total of more than 50 percent!

Now you ask how this would affect the time on the drives vs recoveries. We can see this by adding the 1st 2 strokes and 1st recovery, first 3 strokes and 2 recoveries, and first 4 strokes and 3 recoveries:

strokes / full recoveries
2 + 1 = [ 1.8 + 1.4 ] / 2.0 = 3.2 / 2.0
3 + 2 = [ 1.8 + 1.4 + 1.1 ] / [ 2.0 + 1.7 ] = 4.3 / 3.7
4 + 3 = [ 1.8 + 1.4 + 1.1 = 0.9 ] / [ 2.0 + 1.7 + 1.2 ] = 5.2 / 4.9

strokes / 1/4 1/2 3/4 recoveries
we take 1/4, 1/2, and 3/4ths recoveries, we get:
2 + 1 = [ 1.8 + 1.2 ] / 0.3 = 3.0 / 0.3
3 + 2 = [ 1.8 + 1.2 + 1.0 ] / [ 0.3 + 0.6 ] = 4.0 / 0.9
4 + 3 = [ 1.8 + 1.2 + 1.0 + 0.9 ] / [ 0.3 + 0.6 + 1.1 ] = 4.9 / 2.0

1) By taking 4 full strokes and 3 full recoveries, the total time for the drive is 5.2 seconds and the recovery time is 4.9 seconds, a total of 10.1 seconds, with 51 percent of this on the drive.

2) By taking 4 full strokes and 1/4, 1/2, and 3/4ths recoverings, the total time for the drive is 4.9 seconds and the recovery time is 2.0 seconds, a total of 6.9 seconds, with 71 percent of this time on the drive.

PaulS · Post by **PaulS** » September 12th, 2006, 7:29 pm

WOW! John, you have outdone yourself!

Stay healthy, calm, and well.

johnlvs2run · Post by **johnlvs2run** » September 12th, 2006, 9:05 pm

You're welcome, Paul!

You too!

csabour · Post by **csabour** » September 12th, 2006, 10:26 pm

Francois, where did you get your slides?

is there a place in ottawa who sells them or do i need to order them?

Francois · Post by **Francois** » September 13th, 2006, 1:33 pm

I ordered them from C2. With our strong Canadian dollar it is a no-brainer!

My only regret is that I should have ordered them a long time ago!

Francois

HammerHead Sk8r · Post by **HammerHead Sk8r** » September 13th, 2006, 1:45 pm

Well, I will be ordering mine soon. Just have to reconfigure my gym basement layout so I have enough room.

Thanks for all of the info.

I guess the thing that I have not read as much about is the benefits of switching to the slides. Any more thoughts about the benefits.....