Developing rate

[GeorgeD]

There has been a fair amount of discussion on these forums regarding PaulS views on rowing at a fixed distance per stroke of 10m, hence the s10ps. The benefits that Paul has expounded on are I feel very valid and I think too many people get hung up in the 10m part rather than focus on developing a drive/recovery ratio that works, that said I would be interested in other peoples views regarding how they develop their stroke rate or maybe people dont even think about it.

In my observations most people struggle to lower the rate not raise it, I say this as when I am sitting there at the gym rambling along at 20 or 22spm most of my neighbours are lucky to see the underside or 30spm or 2:00 / 500m.

My reason for raising the discussion is that I have a weakness at getting the rate up (that said I am not doing any speed work anyway) - this is evidenced by my 10k & 30min being at about 24spm and my 5k is at 26 avg. My 2k seldom saw rates over 30 and my long gone 2k pb was at about 32spm. Now for me at present I can row a sub 1:50pace 10k at 24 but would struggle to hold the same pace for the same duration at 26spm and I am wondering if this is just fitness or technique. After all if I am rowing at 26 then my handle force is less as the fan is slowing less - should be easier ..... right Ideally I think I should be doing my 5k at about 28spm but what I tend to find with all these rows is that as the pressure goes on I actually look to drop the rate, add pressure at the drive and get more rest on the recovery - if not in reality then mentally.

I would be keen to see a discussion on others thoughts if anyone is at all interested

George

ps I have tried the s10ps but have not had the fortitude to perservere with it long enough to gain the benefits that I believe are to be had - my fault not the ideas

[Ray79]

Everything you have said George pretty much sums up the way I am as well. I hve no problem rating 18/20/22 or whatever, but when it comes to upping the rate on the erg I find it difficult.

Sure for 500m or so I can hang on to 32 or 34, but any longer and it really becomes a struggle to control the recovery enough.

I also row OTW, and I dont have this problem there, most likely due to the movement of the boat and the fact that all of my rowing is done in crew boats not singles. 34 or 36 spm come fairly naturally there.

Also similar to youself my 5,6 and 10km pbs have all been done at 25 or 26 spm, and even my 2km was done at 29spm. This however does not concern me, as I feel that at the time I had covered the distances in the most efficient and fastest manner possible. To me rate is irrelevant - it is the final outcome that counts. And what some people forget (one in particular) is that every recovery requires you to expend energy also - it doesnt come for free, and so it can tire you out more chasing a rate that is unnatural for you.

I had never heard of sharpening til less than a year ago, and I didnt use it for any of my indoor races or trials, but I do agree with the theory. By increasing the rate even by 2 or 3 spm, the force per stroke can be reduced, and so the row may feel easier - at least for shorter distances.

As far as 10MPS goes, I too have tried it, but didnt have the patience to do it for long enough at low rates, although it does come more naturally at higher rates - like you I dont disagree with the idea, its just my execution of it wasnt that great.

[GeorgeD]

Well said Ray, obviously the age difference is not such a factor as some would make it

I agree to that there is no point in rating higher unless you go faster and this is something I am keen to understand. What difference will it potentially make to a persons 2k time if their max 5k pace was done at 26 rather than 29. Note I am qualifying this with 'max pace' and not a restricted rate row.

George

[hjs]

I had never heard of sharpening til less than a year ago, and I didnt use it for any of my indoor races or trials, but I do agree with the theory. By increasing the rate even by 2 or 3 spm, the force per stroke can be reduced, and so the row may feel easier - at least for shorter distances.

A proper last trainingfase will give you 6/9 % extra.
Training is specific. To race a 2k you have to train that rate/pace combination.

[Ray79]

Yea, I realise that Hjs, its just that I had never heard of it until more recently - same as I had never really prescribed to low rate rowing on the erg, or rowing at lower paces like I did OTW.

Now most of my work on the erg is at low rates, and not spent chasing Pbs - these just come along every once in a while. I do plan to do speedwork and sharpening in the run up to any indoor races I have in future, and hopefully get to sub 6:40 sooner rather than later.

[michaelb]

In a similar vein, I was thinking of posting about training the recovery. So much focus is placed on the drive, it is easy to overlook that 2/3's of the stroke is during the recovery. I would think that the key to successfully upping the rate (as opposed to flailing around) is to up the rate while also maintaining control and technique on the recovery.

PaulS advocates rowing strapless at 10mps. I think one on the main purposes of rowing strapless is to train the recovery, and to help you focus on proper form on the recovery.

[saucecmu40]

I'm glad to hear that I'm not the only one that has difficulty in getting to higher ratings. I'm very tall, 6'7", and feel the most comfortable between 21 and 24 SPM. While really trying to crank it, I can get the rate up to around 28 or so but any higher and I really start to rush the recovery. Being told that you raise the rate by speeding up the drive, it seems to me like there is only so fast these long legs can go and anything higher than 28, possibly 30SPM, is only attainable over time by speeding up the recovery, and thus jeapordizing form.

[hjs]

I'm glad to hear that I'm not the only one that has difficulty in getting to higher ratings. I'm very tall, 6'7", and feel the most comfortable between 21 and 24 SPM. While really trying to crank it, I can get the rate up to around 28 or so but any higher and I really start to rush the recovery. Being told that you raise the rate by speeding up the drive, it seems to me like there is only so fast these long legs can go and anything higher than 28, possibly 30SPM, is only attainable over time by speeding up the recovery, and thus jeapordizing form.

wr is set @ 34 spm, 6.10 tall German.
Other example graham Benton, rates 29 in his last season. And won birc and wirc.
But offcause a big guy rates lower (on average) than a smaller one.

[johnlvs2run]

wr is set @ 34 spm, 6.10 tall German.

Quote from Mathias said he did 37 spm, and lightweight WR at 41 spm.

[Bob S.]

Ideally I think I should be doing my 5k at about 28spm but what I tend to find with all these rows is that as the pressure goes on I actually look to drop the rate, add pressure at the drive and get more rest on the recovery - if not in reality then mentally.
I would be keen to see a discussion on others thoughts if anyone is at all interested :D
George

George,

It has been 60 years now, but I still remember that in my college rowing days, we never did try to go at a particular rate; it was sort of by feel. When the rate went up, it was generally a result of putting a little more effort into each drive. Pull a little harder and the rate just naturally went up. Most of our races then were 2 and 3 miles and the 2k was regarded as sort of an abberation imposed by the Olympic committee. Our starts were in the high thirties, but we generally quickly settled down to the low thirties, even as low as 30. In the finishing sprints, we would get back up into the high thirties again. Of course both the boats and oars were much heavier then and I suppose that the weight factor would tend to slow things down. My main point here is that our rates were a consequence of how hard we pulled and not some predetermined plan.

Bob S.

[tennstrike]

I have tried the s10ps but have not had the fortitude to perservere with it long enough to gain the benefits that I believe are to be had - my fault not the ideas

George:

Have you read anything on the Woverine Plan from Mike Caviston? If you have, the rest of this post is a waste of your time, so sorry. If not, then putting two of these workouts a week into your schedule might be "fun".

A Level 4 workout is a series of continuous intervals, with each small interval at a defined rate and a defined pace. The pace for each rate is from a table which is indexed with your 2K time. For you, the 2K split of 1:43 gets you the following pace at each rate:

16 SPM 02:09
18 SPM 02:04
20 SPM 02:00
22 SPM 01:56
24 SPM 01:52
26 SPP 01:47

This table is strictly for the Level 4 workout and not some kind of ideal pace for a rate. The workout is a multiple 10 minutes, usually either 40' or 60'. The "preferred" length is probably 60', but you if you try this, you may want to start with 40'.

An "easy" start would be the following 2 - 10' sessions, rowed one after the other. For a 40' workout, just do it again and yet again for a 60'.

2'/2'/2'/2'/2' 16/18/20/18/16 This is a 176, 176 strokes in the 10'
4'/3'/2'/1' 16/18/20/22 This is a 180, 180 strokes in the 10'

So you start rowing at a rate of 16 and hold a pace of 2:09 for 2 minutes. Then you switch to a rate of 18 at a pace of 2:04, etc. Of course, you could up all the SPM by 2 and get a 196 for the first 10' and a 200 for the second 10'. I've done the math for you and if you did three of the above "easy start", for a 60' workout, you would cover 14,439 meters which would be an average pace of 2:04.6. But from the plan ".. due to the relationship between velocity and power, the average watts for the varying rate sequences will be higher than for the steady rate.." Also from the plan "..rowing at a given average pace with changing rates is more physically demanding than rowing at the same pace with a constant rate." You will also note that your total stokes in 60' will be 1,068 and since you will cover 14,439, your meters per stroke will be just over 13.5.

If you have not done this workout, while it will take several attempts, you will find that it goes by very fast. A 60' L4 workout goes by much faster for me than a 12K, which I am currently doing in just under 50'. Maybe it is the constant counting on which second to pull (one way to hold the steady rate) or whatever method you use to keep track of switching that prevents boredom.

The pace for a given rate is set for a "season". The way you train harder is to add more strokes in a given 10' period. There are almost an infinite number of possibilites and there are many common ones listed in the posted Wolverine Plan.

If you have never done this, I highly recommend it. I do three of the 60' pieces a week. If youve read the Wolverine Plan or portions before, sorry for the long winded post.

Jeff

[becz]

I think there tends to be too much focus on the drive and recovery in isolation when it comes to increasing stroke rate, and too little emphasis on the transition between the two, especially at the finish. At some point, especially on the erg, it simply won't be possible to increase the rate just by "pushing harder". That's also a sure way to drive your lactate production through the roof. Also, by trying to speed up the recovery phase to get the rate up you will typically get a lot of bouncing around.

The best thing to do is learn how to transition from drive to recovery efficiently. You need to get your body back to a position where your CG is over the seat rather than behind it. This is done by using the last portion of the arm pull to actually bring your shoulders (and therefore your torso) forward. If you look at very good rowers (both indoor and outdoor) they have a characteristic cupped shape to their backs at the finish. This is due to "getting the shoulders out of the bow first". This also helps to lead to a very smooth recovery as the body is in a stable position to support the arms-back-legs recovery motion. Try it - it works.

[TomR]

George (and Ray)--

You're both long men, so you're likely to rate lower, seems to me. Doesn't GBenton, another long man, pull his 2k at about 30?

At 6' and a fraction, I'm neither long nor short. I rate about 32/33 for a 2k. Recently I rated about 37 for 500. I am sure that was an ugly piece of business, but fortunately there are no deductions for style.

I expect, though, that races rates on the erg will depend on your length and whether you're forte is power (lower rate) or endurance (higher rate). In this equation, low rates would only be a problem if you're weak.

Tom

[GeorgeD]

My main point here is that our rates were a consequence of how hard we pulled and not some predetermined plan.

Bob S.

Bob I like this point, well made

I expect, though, that races rates on the erg will depend on your length and whether you're forte is power (lower rate) or endurance (higher rate). In this equation, low rates would only be a problem if you're weak.

Tom

Tom I think this it pretty sage as well

George

[JimR]

I find that when following the s10mps approach I have to focus on the rate as my pace speeds up ... or I will tend to underrate. I too find that I will pull harder not faster when tired in a workout if I don't pay attention.

I don't think the ideas about the WP plan are wrong in any way but I also don't think level 4 workouts will help with rate either. I find a couple things help me ...
1) short intervals like 8 x 500m with a rest of 3:30 or so ... you have to be fresher to keep the rate up
2) workouts on slides help me learn the quickness, then off slides I try to get the same effect
3) lower the drag to nothing, making it easier to get the rate up

If you never try to get 10mps at your maximum paces then when you rate up it will never feel right. Now having said all this if you erg and row singles maybe this isn't so important. If you are going to row in bigger boats you usally have to follow the lead and it is usually higher.

My daughter (college rower) once wondered why the nut case that wants to row at a 40+ always gets put in stroke seat with a cox who thinks 50 is a good rate to do pwers?!

JimR