s10mps versus varying stroke rate

[Sean Seamus]

I have a question / puzzle, and would welcome opinions

I've rowed 2 million meters over 18 months, and am starting to get the hang of it. Originally, to get myself going, I signed up for a 2k race and used the "Original 2,000m Program" from the UK site. It has served me well through 2 races.

My primary focus is CV well-being, and secondarily the pleasure of the activity. You should know that I am older, 54, and in fair to moderate shape. I have no illusions of ever being very fast, and racing is just a focal point to keep me interested a bit.

Presently, I am in the "Preparation" phase, so my work is all UT1 & UT2, stroke 18 / 20 / 22 / 24. For UT1 sessions I warm up 10' and cool down 10', and then do 40 to 60 minutes in varying time segments.

After my last race, Feb 2006, I thought to explore, and discovered "s10mps". For me, 2:38 @ 19 s/ and 2:30 @ 20 s/ evoke my UT1 heart rate.

The "Orig 2,000m Prg" wants me to do UT1 work at 20 / 22 / 24, with a note to the effect that "easy" weeks have a lower stroke rate, and "hard" weeks a higher stroke rate.

For me this would effectively mean that I was pulling less hard but more frequently during "hard" weeks. Perhaps there is a value in doing so, but I am unclear about this.

opinions ?

[johnlvs2run]

Why would you go less hard during hard weeks.

It seems to me that you would go harder during hard weeks, and easier during easy weeks.

[Sean Seamus]

yes - quite - exactly -- if I am not to exceed my target heart rate, as per the Training Band, I can't go the degree "harder" that the increased stroke rate demands as per "s10mps"

[johnlvs2run]

It is better to have a free rate when you are aiming for time.

Are you lightweight or heavyweight?

[Sean Seamus]

lwt 160# 5' 8" 2k 7:54.2

[almostflipped]

Sean: Plenty of people have gotten fast by varying stroke rate, and plenty have done so by keeping a steady rate. The trick is to find which one you are going to enjoy more while doing your SS, and will therefore make you more likely to continue to do SS. Stick to your heart rate zones. How hard you are pulling doesn't actually matter if your are still in a UT1 zone. The same changes are happening in your body, just the fun statistics look different.

[johnlvs2run]

Sean,


We are almost in the same division.

One option is to not worry about any low stroke rate rowing at all, and keep up your stroke rate at all times. This way you can insure the low rates will not impinge your form, and make it worse at free ratings, as it often does to those who overdo the low ratings.

Another option is to merge your low rate rowing with free rates, i.e. do some low rate rowing, and the rest at free rates.

You really don't need to do much low rate rowing to learn how to do it. Most of the benefit comes at the start. And as long as you can do it, there is no reason to do it all of the time. I read about a guy who practiced low rate rowing all of the time. His low rate times got quite a bit faster after doing them for a year. The problem was, his free rate times got much slower than they had been.

[lintonwilson]

would someone please post the formulas for:

mps

spi


thanks

[johnlvs2run]

mps = meters per stroke = dps = distance per stroke

There is no formula for this. Just check and count the meters per stroke. If you are aiming for 8 meters per stroke, then this is 5 strokes for each 40 meters, and 25 strokes for each 200 meters. An easier way is to go by the rating, and this is even easier with a metronome.

If you are aiming for 8 mps, a 2:05 pace is 30 spm. Keep the rating right at 30 spm for a 2:05 pace, and this will be 8 meters per stroke. You can calculate the spm for any pace at any mps. I prefer doing this by using a metronome, and going by the stroke rate.

SPI is calculated by dividing the watts by the stroke rate. SPI stands for the Stroke - Pause - Index, which inserts a long pause/rest between strokes, StoPs your Improvement and, because it doesn't consider the time of your efforts, is a mostly useless calculation and has no relation to power.

The best way to tell the power you are generating with your rowing, is to keep your eyes on the pace and/or watts on the monitor. Pace and watts have a direct proportional relationship. The faster your pace and/or the higher the watts, the more power you are generating with your rowing.

[Sean Seamus]

Dan -
Jonn's basic definition of SPI is essentially correct.
His elaboration is pejorative.
While I neither "get" nor use SPI, there are many apparently competent persons who do.

"s10mps" refers to strapless 10 meters per stroke, and the arithmetic is simple. At 20 strokes per minute, you would travel 200 meters per minute, so the time per 500 meters would be 2:30 (2 minutes 30 seconds).
It is a TRAINING scheme, and (as best I understand it) holds that by learning to hold a steady effort while increasing stroke rate, one does not merely flail when speeding up. Also, as the stroke rate increases, the balance of drive / recovery is optimized.

In the event that one could maintain the 10mps, at 30 strokes per minute, one would be zipping along at 1:40/500m = 6:40 2k, a significant accomplishment fo many, and at 35 s// well under 6 minutes.

Easy as that. A few quick strokes = a gold medal !

Using the SEARCH feature of the Forum will lead you to many fine discussions of these ideas.

IMO, John has many good ideas, but is not a fan of either of these two.

~ Sean

[xeno]

Hi Sean
Greater distance per stroke, or torque per stroke, is a result of increased fitness. I never focused on it as a goal to attain. Most national teams train between a boring 18 stroke per minute and a more enjoyable 20-21 strokes per minute (which I did). Sounds like splicing hairs but for me rowing the single scull at 21 was more enjoyable than 18. Rowing 18 was hard on my body and especially my hands. The focus for me was to be in the target heart rate zone and keep up torque which at 21 felt sufficient. Easy workouts would have lower heart rates and a stroke rate of 19-20 with technique exercises mixed in.
I hope my account brings you a bit more information.
XENO

By the way, good job rowing. You are not "older" at 54. The fact that you picked up rowing is going to have a tremendous effect on your ability to live strong for MANY MANY more years!!!

[johnlvs2run]

Going a low number of strokes, is like driving a manual transmission at 10 miles per hour in 5th gear.

[xeno]

At the Iron Oarsman the regular (steady state) stroke rate is around 26-27. People of the street have a hard time figuring out the power application at lower stroke rates. The more advanced rowers feel pretty comfortable at 22-23.
I did not invent rowing at 17-22 to improve the cardio vascular stamina. Th issue with rowing at a higher stroke rate per minute is that once race time comes around a rower runs out of power/stroke-rate-elasticity.
Indoor rowing may be less of an issue because boat run is a non-factor.
I have not done enough research to figure out master rowers. At the Olympic level, steady state is around 20 stroke per minute. Race pace ends up being at 33-40 depending on style and boat class.
The lower stroke rate is also necessary to give the body time to recover between accelerations. Some training plans stress intensity over aerobic development. For the aerobic development a lower stroke rate is far handier, since the resistance is higher and more muscle fibers are stimulated to propel the fly wheel or the boat through the water.
This is in a nut shell how I prepared for my best races. As of now the method has not changed among other successful international crews.

[Jim Barry]

MPS formula:
Take your distance and divide by the minutes it took. Take that and divide by stroke rate.

A 10000m piece that takes 40 minutes at 25spm is 10000/40 or 250 and 250/25 is 10.

A 500m pace that is 1:45 at 30spm is 500/1.75 minutes or 285.7. 285.7/30 = 9.52

In my Excel log, I have MPS in one of the cells after I enter the distance, time and stroke rate.

SPI Formula

Distance/time in seconds. Raise that to the 3rd power. Multiply by 2.8. (or read the watts off the Monitor). Divide by stroke rate.

[Sean Seamus]

John Rupp wrote :
Going a low number of strokes, is like driving a manual transmission at 10 miles per hour in 5th gear.

equally, going a high number of strokes would be like going 20 mph in 1st gear.

The question I'm trying to resolve is what are the optimal ranges for the gears. There will be overlaps. I am toying with the thought that there may be a value in not overly strictly staying at one stroke rate for a given HR training band, so as to not get stuck in one groove / rut.

I work in a gym, and see plenty of people stroking 30+ @3:30/500m.
Others do a series of slow HUGE jerking strokes, reminiscent of Olympic lifts.
Somewhere there is a balance. Where?

A lot depends on the goal/s being sought. Mine is to learn safe effective pleasure-yielding technique, that I can refine and exploit for the rest of my life, so as to maintain a healthy pill-free life. My primary physical activity is walking in meadows for hours at a time, but it is tough to get my HR up very high, weather often interferes, and my wife and job object to me being gone for 6 - 10 hours every day. The erg is a god-send for me - safe, concentrated, rhythymic, cheap. Swimming could have worked, but a pool in in a 600 sq ft apartment was . . . untenable. If someone told me I could be the fastest stationery rower in the universe at next year's Cdn Indoor - but would have to limp ever after - I would say no thank you.

Inasmuch as the plan I am following says to :
- bring my HR to a pre-determined level and hold it there for x minutes, at stroke rates of n or n+2 or n+4 on varying days, and
- my experience is that those three stroke rates will all result in approximately the same pace/500m so long as I hold the HR;
- then clearly this precludes the s10mps approach.

So - what is the value of pulling more times less hard (or fewer times more hard - same thing), versus the s10mps approach ?

I am imagining there may be a value. What is it ?

I really do appreciate the suggestions being made here, and it may be that really it is simply a matter of personal taste.