Concept2 Forum

Hi all,

I am fairly new here, rowing since last November. I have read a bit about the watts reading on the PM3, how do I interpret this data and use it to improve my training? I apologise if this has been discussed before, the old posts are not accessible so I cannot research them. My primary goal out of erging is general fitness, I am not a racer.

If you scroll down, you'll find a thread called "Watts again."

You might take a peek there.

S,
If you work at 2W/kg, at around 10 Watt-minutes per stroke (i.e Watt/rating), keep your HRR% at between 65 and 80%, and stay there for 30'+ a day, you'll get fit and can also make sure your technique is reasonable.

Smooth, relaxed, long strokes and low drag are also in the basic package.

The overall control is sweat - 1 kg a go is ok, more if you like.

Adjust the 10W' parameter to your height, age, sex and weight.

If you're unfit now, move in slowly using HR.

Hi, Im the guy who started the previous "Watts" post. Before I monitored watts, i did not realize how the power of each one of my strokes varied. I was pulling hard, trying to keep up a good 25 stroke per minute pace, and trying to stay as close to 2:00/500 meters for 5000 meters. I was having a hard time staying under the 2:00 per 500 meters for the whole 5000 meters. So my times were ok, but not under 20 minutes like i wanted. I was hovering around 20:40. Then I started watching Watts, thats when I realized how much the power of my strokes varied. Now i try to keep my watts average above 200 for 5000 meters, my time decreased, really in a matter of 2 weeks to where today for the first time i completed 5000 meters in 19:56, my watt average was 204. I learned that the slightest variation in my stroke can bring my watt average down, which brings my time down. I hope this helps. Rendog

Thanks, that last explanation really seems to help. I have been only focusing on my time per 500 m but noticed that I was at about 35 spm. From what I understand, I should be way lower than that. So I have been watching my force curve and I will watch my watts to see how that helps.

Your right, 35 strokes per minute is kind of high. My stroke rate today was 23 s/m, and my watts was 204. this gave me the sub 20:00 for the 5000 meters. ya gotta pull pretty hard and consistantly.

Rendog:

Congratulations on hitting your goal.

I'm a big advocate of using watts and watching watts during my workouts. I'm in the distinct minority, however. Almost everyone talks about pace per 500m.

I also keep track of stroke rate during my workouts. I generally make sure my stroke rate is in a pretty narrow range. So if I keep watts and stroke rate relatively constant, the hardness of my pull or stroke power index (SPI) e.g. watts/spm stays relatively constant throughout my workout.

Keep up the good work.

jjpisano wrote: I also keep track of stroke rate during my workouts. I generally make sure my stroke rate is in a pretty narrow range. So if I keep watts and stroke rate relatively constant, the hardness of my pull or stroke power index (SPI) e.g. watts/spm stays relatively constant throughout my workout.

Jim,
Since you have elevated SPI to signature status, I would be interested if you (or anyone else) could explain what SPI means to you, and how you use it. I understand how it is calculated (watts divided by stroke rate), but I don't see how it has meaning by itself. SPI=15 or SPI=10 don't mean anything, what is meaningful is to compare the numerators and dominators, how many watts at what stroke rate. Watts, undivided, show how much power you are producing per stroke, so we all know that 250 watts per stroke is more power than 200 watts.

I also can't see how rowing at a certain SPI at one SR has any relationship to rowing that same SPI at other SRs. What is the connection between rowing a 2:00 pace at SR 20 and a 1:45 pace at SR 30, both equalling SPI=10? There seems to be this belief system that SPI can be "scaled up" so if you could just hold your SPI and increase your SR, you will somehow be able to go that much faster. Is there any evidence this is true?

thanks.

Michaelb:

I don't have any evidence. I just have my own experience. I wish there were more concrete controlled experiments in this world.

From my own experience, I know that to pull a good 2k I have to have a strong stroke. For a few years, I thought I could finesse the machine. All I had to do was raise the rate and I'd get better times. For a few years, I trained at whatever rate came naturally to me for a certain time and/or distance with a goal intensity in mind. I did OK with that but I thought I could do better.

So this past year, I figured I was going to shoot for 320w for the 2k at Crash-B's. My previous best was 317w performed at Pittsburgh Indoor Sprints - which brought me in at 6:53.1, which nearly killed me at a high stroke rate. Since that effort, generally, my 2k stroke rate usually ends up around 32 s/m. So I thought to try all my training at the SPI of around 10 since my goal 2k was 320w and my natural tendency for rowing a 2k is/was at 32 s/m. I also figured that I would have to master long slow distance rowing at 75% of 320w which is 240w. I started the training year with LSD at 180w and 17 s/m and slowly progressed the length of time rowing at the same intensity until I incrementally increased my work time to 40 minutes. After mastering that level, I incrementally increased my watts by 6 watts. I repeated the process until right before I got to Crash-b's when I was doing LSD at 240w @ 23 s/m.

I did a bunch of sprint workouts the last 6 weeks and showed up in Boston confident that I could do a 2k at 320w. My time in Boston was 6:52.0 and I ended at 320w on the nose.

This year I'm hoping to progress my time from 6:52 to 6:40. To do that, I need to be able to do the 2k at 350w. My natural tendency is to row at 32 s/m and so I have to train a stronger stroke with an SPI of 11.25 My goal is to master LSD at 75% of 350w, which is around 263 w and 24 s/m. I started last month at 210w and 19 s/m. This month I've already progressed to 216w @ 19 s/m. This AM, after a good warmup I did 216w @ 19s/m for 26 minutes. The end of this cycle will be the same work intensity for 40 minutes. The new cycle will begin again with a progression of my intensity to 222 w but I'll back down on my time and I will bring the stoke rate up to 20 s/m.

Now you know all my secrets, and I can not give you any evidence for what I do. I guess I've experienced a little and read from the Wolverine Plan and I've read alot on this forum and I've read from Dr. Stephen Seilor's (spelling) MAPP site and knowing the limitations on my time and trying to maximize volume, I've come up with this training philosophy.

Of course, it all could be bunk and I may crash and burn and not progress at all and maybe I'll junk this training mode in the end after becoming convinced of the futility of my efforts. But if I do progress, I'll be sure to keep the forum up to date.

Thanks for the questions.

Rendog wrote:I learned that the slightest variation in my stroke can bring my watt average down, which brings my time down. I hope this helps. Rendog

Actually as the Pace goes down, the Watts go up proportionally.

The values for Pace and Watts are directly proportional to each other,

John Rupp wrote:

Rendog wrote:I learned that the slightest variation in my stroke can bring my watt average down, which brings my time down. I hope this helps. Rendog

Actually as the Pace goes down, the Watts go up proportionally.

The values for Pace and Watts are directly proportional to each other,

Just so we don't bog this thread down with a discussion of the formula for the relationship between pace and watts and whether or not that relationship is "directly proportional"...that discussion is over on this thread--also named "Watts" (but without the "??") for those of you who would like to continue that discussion.

Alissa

Thanks for the info, Jim. You seem to making good strong progress, so don't let what I say change your thinking. I don't think there is one way to train. Sports would be boring that way, and we would all turn out like that Russian guy in Rocky IV.

I understand the theory of doing long slow distance (LSD) at low stroke rates. You hold a pace target in watts and extend the length of the workout over time; other plans would have you row the same time or distance, but would ratchet down the pace target. How to best improve one's ability to row LSD at UT1 level HRs is one of the often discussed but still unresolved questions on this forum (and likely has several inconsistent answers).

I guess my primary issue with SPI is how SR sensitive it is. Do you think it really makes a difference if you are rowing 230 watts at SR=16.5 (SPI=14) or SR=20 (SPI=11.5). Both are very slow rate rows, so I think the key similarity is the watts produced and the huge difference in SPI is just not that meaningful. I am also not sure how that difference in SRs translates at all when you are racing at SR=32.

I also think it was interesting that you say your "natural" SR in a 2k is 32. If the bulk of your training is at SRs in the low 20s, I agree you may struggle to row above that. But what would happen to your "natural" SR if you trained long and hard at SRs in the 25-30 range? One of the insights I gained this winter was the value of rowing at those mid SRs strapless in medium hard workouts because of how they really forced discipline and quickness on the recovery.

Anyway, interesting. Sorry to hijack the watts thread, although in some ways SPI is sort of the secret advanced calculus of watts based training.

Just to add a few more points.

During this past year before Boston, with warmup meters excluded, I erged nearly 2 million meters at a relatively constant SPI of around 10, which amounts to nearly 200,000 strokes at the SPI of my goal 2k. I had to do my ingrained signature stroke 200 or so times and I would hit my goal. Of course, I had to be aerobically fit too so I built up my intensity throughout the year so that the last 15,000 or so Long Slow Distance strokes were at 240w which is 75% of my 320w goal. My muscles were supremely trained for that particular stroke intensity and my aerobic capacity was trained to the right level, where I should with confidence do a 100% effort at 320w. Train hard and race with confidence.

I believe that with enough time and with small, incremental increases in watts and concommitent, proportional increase in stroke rate, it is possible for us ergers to unlock our potential.

I may be wrong, however, but I am a believer in 1) training Strapless
2) watching Watts 3) and Constant Stroke Power Index (watts/spm) training, i.e. SWCSPI. Therefore, I am

Great posts Jim. Thoughtful and well-expressed. It's iinteresting to hear about different regimens that have been successful.

I recall you were doing lots of heavy 10s for a while. Are they still part of your early season training?

Tom

TomR:

Last night I was working on a nice long reply with a part discussing Heavy 10's when the electricity went out and I lost the post and I ran out of time.

I don't do Heavy 10's anymore because you need a lot of recovery time after them which will necessarily decrease one's absolute volume of work, which can be used for developing aerobic capacity. They're great at developing strength but they're horrible at maintaining aerobic ability.

I think it's possible to work them into a routine, perhaps the last workout before a scheduled off day, but I haven't done so.

I think doing relatively high watt, relatively low spm LSD work, you develop a strong stroke while working on aerobic capacity.