Concept2 Forum

Dear C2 forum members,

Thank you for having an excellent resource publicly accessible. Sadly, my workplace has a newly built gym with all TechnoGym equipment and I don't have access to a C2, but rather four SkillRow machines (and they all seems to be slightly different in terms of usage/maintenance). I'm surprised that they all fill up, there's a weekly leaderboard, and I've seen all kinds of antics on them in by 10-session rowing career.

Anyway, I'm here looking to confirm that I'm on the right path with a goal to enjoy rowing and become better.

Me: 48/M/6'1"/90kg. Relatively slim but after the birth of my two children, I am getting back into working out. I really enjoy running but I with by increased weight (last 10-mile race in 2019, I weighed 82kg) it's very hard on my knees. That's where rowing comes in.

Info so far:

1. I started by watching "pick" drills on DH rowing here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GYQEP66O9bk (and I try to do this 2-3 days/week on the machine before some other rowing).
2. I have set the drag factor on the machine down to around 120 (third screen on the machine itself).
3. I'm rowing for 5k at 18-20 s/m and around 120 watts average (with a 2:20/split) and it's comfortable and I'm working on form/breathing.
4. I'm watching the power curve (SkillRow app on a phone above the screen) ... and with the info here: https://blog.rowsandall.com/2016/11/19/ ... rce-curve/ I'm trying to see where I can improve form. It looks like the trunk is weak as are the arms. When I row as per 3, the kgf is around 50-70kgf and the curve is wide and flat.
5. I'm looking at stroke length and I am around 150-155cm when lazy/tired and 160-165cm when I lean forward and rearward at the ends of the stroke.
6. I use my old Garmin Forerunner 45 as I measure walking distance (10km/day) and HR during cycling to work/schools (120-140 bpm) but it doesn't work so well with the rowing due to bending of the wrist. I seem to stay around 100-120. I need to find a clock at the end of the workout and check this manually as it seems too low. (RHR average varies from 55-60 if no alcohol is consumed, or around 10 bpm if I have a beer or two).

Equipment differences:

1. I can't really get on a C2 easily (no space at home and this gym is where my children swim and it's a 5 min walk from the office).
2. From my reading it seems the SkillRow produces similar values to the C2 in the rowing mode (essentially an ergometer as well, but the data feedback is less convenient and it's 4x the price). In the strength mode, there's some magnet stuff that I don't use (I simply look for a df of around 120 and use mode 4/10).

Advice from anyone:

1. Could someone recommend an inexpensive HR strap that will connect to the skill row, so I can get an accurate fitness baseline? I'll check the Garmin against a clock today when I'm in the gym.
2. I think I'll continue to row like I am (4-5 times a week at 5k meters (2:20 splits at 18-20 s/m while working on form) for another month or so until looking at the beginning Pete's plan (unless there is a better option). Is this the way forward to get ready for Pete's?

Overall goal is general fitness with something I enjoy, which is current the rowing.

Many thanks for an excellent resource and have a great sunny morning.

I am a satisfied user of a Moofit HR monitor (for 26 USD on Amamzon) on a C2. Since the connection protocols are all standard I assume it will work on the SkillRow too.

Hello again,

I just wanted to say that I sprang for a Decathlon HRM (£25 new BT/ANT+) that should connect with the SkillRow. Having said that, I was able to get a better reading with my Garmin FR45 by sliding it up my arm a little and get a better reading of my HR during the row today.

It seems that my HR stayed between 135 and 150 over the 5k this afternoon. If my RHR is 60 and my MHR is 190 (measure by watch at the end of a 5k Parkrun). Am I calculating this correctly, as in this at the upper end of UT1 as what I should shooting for to build some aerobic base?

Many thanks and have a nice afternoon,
Roger

H2O wrote: ↑

July 3rd, 2025, 11:52 am

I am a satisfied user of a Moofit HR monitor (for 26 USD on Amamzon) on a C2. Since the connection protocols are all standard I assume it will work on the SkillRow too.

I wouldn't bet on it, at all. Most equipment slap on a bunch of logo's without any real support. I am also active on the EXR rowing group (lots of non-C2 machines there), and there are a lot of issues with non-C2 machines. The TechnoGym does claim to support ANT+ and Bluetooth. If given a choice, go for the ANT+ HR belts as there is a certification scheme behind it and it is much less problematic.

rdraheim wrote: ↑

July 3rd, 2025, 4:57 am

Anyway, I'm here looking to confirm that I'm on the right path with a goal to enjoy rowing and become better.

Let me start by saying that by far this is the most important part.

rdraheim wrote: ↑

July 3rd, 2025, 4:57 am

From my reading it seems the SkillRow produces similar values to the C2 in the rowing mode (essentially an ergometer as well, but the data feedback is less convenient and it's 4x the price).

My experience is different. I'm developer of OpenRowingMonitor, and our goal is to help owners of non-C2 machines get decent metrics. My experience is that most machines get the balance of drag and flywheel inertia wrong (making it feel off) and often completely mess up the metrics. Even expensive brands (like NordicTrack) have shown that their metrics are bad.

rdraheim wrote: ↑

July 3rd, 2025, 4:57 am

In the strength mode, there's some magnet stuff that I don't use (I simply look for a df of around 120 and use mode 4/10).

Yeah, that is where things really go off the rails, and it shows TechnoGym has no clue what they are doing. A magnet provides a constant drag force. An air-braked flywheel provides a drag force that depends on the flywheel speed (and thus the drag force automatically reacts to your stroke). Mixing them is difficult, as it throws the drag calculation in total chaos as the flywheel behaviour doesn't fit a decent curve. I have developed the algorithms for OpenRowingMonitor that actually do these calculations, and these hybrid machines are just plain weird.

From a rowing perspective, it becomes weird as well, as the constant force causes you to have a hard catch, and then you pull through as the resistance doesn't adapt to my legs and back kicking in in the middle section. I owned a NordicTrack that was a hybrid, in the end I removed the magnet.

rdraheim wrote: ↑

July 3rd, 2025, 4:57 am

Overall goal is general fitness with something I enjoy, which is current the rowing.

That will always remain the most important bit, regardless of machine.

I cannot comment on the pace comparisons to a c2 erg, but 120W = 2:22.9 on the C2.

My other thing i picked up is:

Stroke length: ...150-155cm when lazy/tired and 160-165cm...

with1.85 height you're getting ~90% your height on the longer ones- that says to me: you're very flexible or you're forcing it and using weak form.

There is no "perfect ratio" - and I've got a very short stroke length for my 1.92 height, 1.20-1.35 typically - a dodgy lower back and v tight Achilles/calves. (and I do almost all my rowing strapless)

In the same way there is no "perfect" stroke in terms of the shape of the curve and what % is generate by which muscle groups and if you are in perfect sequence or blending legs/back etc - although never pull with the arms while legs/back are still driving.

We're all individuals with our own bio-mechanical quirks.

But, if your strokelength is coming from over compressing (shins beyond vertical and rounding the back) at the catch and too large a layback, you open yourself up to higher risk of injury + potentially leaking power on top of that risk.

Setting yourself up with good form now will really help you as you progress - it's so easy to learn bad habits early that then take more work to correct later when you've got to re-train the muscle memory.

I've used TechnoGym in hotel gyms. All in all, I don't like the feel as much as C2, especially when you turn up the supplemental mag resistance. But it seems adequate to me, and the "pace" numbers seemed within the ballpark of what I'd expect on a C2 for the same RPE. I didn't try the HR, as I seldom bother to take a chest strap with me when I travel.

I did wonder what makes it worth four times the price of a C2. I suspect hotels don't pay anywhere what we do, and they do, to paraphrase Homer Simpson "look expensive."

At least you don't have to waste your time figuring out how to log in like you do with Peleton.

JaapvanE wrote: ↑

July 3rd, 2025, 1:21 pm

My experience is different. I'm developer of OpenRowingMonitor, and our goal is to help owners of non-C2 machines get decent metrics. My experience is that most machines get the balance of drag and flywheel inertia wrong (making it feel off) and often completely mess up the metrics. Even expensive brands (like NordicTrack) have shown that their metrics are bad.

JaapvanE wrote: ↑

July 3rd, 2025, 1:21 pm

Yeah, that is where things really go off the rails, and it shows TechnoGym has no clue what they are doing. A magnet provides a constant drag force. An air-braked flywheel provides a drag force that depends on the flywheel speed (and thus the drag force automatically reacts to your stroke). Mixing them is difficult, as it throws the drag calculation in total chaos as the flywheel behaviour doesn't fit a decent curve. I have developed the algorithms for OpenRowingMonitor that actually do these calculations, and these hybrid machines are just plain weird.

From a rowing perspective, it becomes weird as well, as the constant force causes you to have a hard catch, and then you pull through as the resistance doesn't adapt to my legs and back kicking in in the middle section. I owned a NordicTrack that was a hybrid, in the end I removed the magnet.

I just wanted to say thank you for responding. I took a quick look at the git and some commentary about the formulae employed by the software and discussions of linear regression posted here and I'm blown away. I have a feeling that enjoy rowing and the maths behind it quite a bit.

p_b82 wrote: ↑

July 3rd, 2025, 1:22 pm

I cannot comment on the pace comparisons to a c2 erg, but 120W = 2:22.9 on the C2.

My other thing i picked up is:

Stroke length: ...150-155cm when lazy/tired and 160-165cm...

with1.85 height you're getting ~90% your height on the longer ones- that says to me: you're very flexible or you're forcing it and using weak form.

There is no "perfect ratio" - and I've got a very short stroke length for my 1.92 height, 1.20-1.35 typically - a dodgy lower back and v tight Achilles/calves. (and I do almost all my rowing strapless)

In the same way there is no "perfect" stroke in terms of the shape of the curve and what % is generate by which muscle groups and if you are in perfect sequence or blending legs/back etc - although never pull with the arms while legs/back are still driving.

We're all individuals with our own bio-mechanical quirks.

But, if your strokelength is coming from over compressing (shins beyond vertical and rounding the back) at the catch and too large a layback, you open yourself up to higher risk of injury + potentially leaking power on top of that risk.

Setting yourself up with good form now will really help you as you progress - it's so easy to learn bad habits early that then take more work to correct later when you've got to re-train the muscle memory.

Many thanks for taking the time to reply and I must admit it is likely weak form, which I'll start to correct tomorrow. After watching a few videos, it's likely rolling the shoulders and too large of a layback.

I'll have to make a video.

Have a nice evening.

rdraheim wrote: ↑

July 3rd, 2025, 4:57 am

.. I think I'll continue to row like I am (4-5 times a week at 5k meters (2:20 splits at 18-20 s/m while working on form) for another month or so until looking at the beginning Pete's plan (unless there is a better option). Is this the way forward to get ready for Pete's?

Re: HR monitor. Good info above. If you use Garmin as your workout data aggregator then connect your new belt to the forerunner 45 over ANT+ and use your watch to record your workouts. That'll give you accurate info. Any belt that can claim ANT+ will connect to both your watch and the rower at the same time.

There are several mutually exclusive approaches to training. Maybe watch this TED talk and then decide if you want to continue 4-5 sessions/week at moderate to hard pace, or switch to 2-3 hard session and the remainder longer and slower before going to Pete Plan. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MALsI0mJ09I ALL of the training approaches work, so pick one that fits you. Your walking goal is excellent.

Your focus on technique is excellent. Aside: Technogym Skillrow costs 4 times more than C2 erg and "...is a premium rowing machine that offers a unique and realistic rowing experience, along with advanced features for both cardio and power training..." Sounds like the rower will be perfect for you. Don't hesitate to use this forum for rowing technique questions, etc.

It doesn't work so well with the rowing due to bending of the wrist

Bending the wrist is a major and dangerous fault. Keep your wrists, forearms and hands flat and straight: the loads are very high. Rowing is done with the legs, since they are large and offer a long movement. The wrists are only used in rowing to square the blade and get it out of the water, neither of which is needed on an erg.

Technique is very simple, and must be developed before attempting to work hard. All we have to do is reach a strong catch posture (back and arms straight, slight lean forward, shins vertical) using the recovery sequence hands away, then swing, then slide. Then then slam the legs down fast. All the rest relaxed.

Henley Royal Regatta today shows some of the best in the world, racing in the Finals. We have to imagine how they paddle and train at low rates; racing is done at up to 40. However on the 2-boat Henley course, if a crew is well ahead we may see them (from close up via drones), paddling at 25-28 in the second half of the race. In particular, the 4x crews are usually perfect: it's a fast boat and the crew have two sculls each.

I use the C2 Wods for training, which seems effective for test distances up to 10-20 minutes. Since March this year I warm up at 80-100W, then 120W average, rate 20-22, 84y, 76kg. Stroke 5.5 to 6W (Watts/Rating), but not yet 2W/kg save for very short pieces.

Tsnor wrote: ↑

July 4th, 2025, 11:52 am

rdraheim wrote: ↑

July 3rd, 2025, 4:57 am

.. I think I'll continue to row like I am (4-5 times a week at 5k meters (2:20 splits at 18-20 s/m while working on form) for another month or so until looking at the beginning Pete's plan (unless there is a better option). Is this the way forward to get ready for Pete's?

Re: HR monitor. Good info above. If you use Garmin as your workout data aggregator then connect your new belt to the forerunner 45 over ANT+ and use your watch to record your workouts. That'll give you accurate info. Any belt that can claim ANT+ will connect to both your watch and the rower at the same time.

There are several mutually exclusive approaches to training. Maybe watch this TED talk and then decide if you want to continue 4-5 sessions/week at moderate to hard pace, or switch to 2-3 hard session and the remainder longer and slower before going to Pete Plan. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MALsI0mJ09I ALL of the training approaches work, so pick one that fits you. Your walking goal is excellent.

Your focus on technique is excellent. Aside: Technogym Skillrow costs 4 times more than C2 erg and "...is a premium rowing machine that offers a unique and realistic rowing experience, along with advanced features for both cardio and power training..." Sounds like the rower will be perfect for you. Don't hesitate to use this forum for rowing technique questions, etc.

Many thanks for the commentary, wrt a HRM. I have splurged for the least expensive ANT+ one from Decathlon. It's arrived and I tested it over the weekend with my Garmin Forerunner 45, which worked well.

Today, I will try to connect the HRM via ANT+ to my watch and the SkillRow. Any idea whether I should choose Other activity on my GFR45? I'm going to see today what data is exportable from SkillRow and from the watch.

The idea is to try a 2k @ 140bpm, a 500m TT, and a 1k @ 140pm cooldown. In an attempt to see a 500m time, which I can use to try a 2K (= 500m pace + 10s/500m).

I also had some time to watch that TEDx talk over the weekend, thank you very much for the insight.

jamesg wrote: ↑

July 6th, 2025, 1:05 am

It doesn't work so well with the rowing due to bending of the wrist

Bending the wrist is a major and dangerous fault. Keep your wrists, forearms and hands flat and straight: the loads are very high. Rowing is done with the legs, since they are large and offer a long movement. The wrists are only used in rowing to square the blade and get it out of the water, neither of which is needed on an erg.

Technique is very simple, and must be developed before attempting to work hard. All we have to do is reach a strong catch posture (back and arms straight, slight lean forward, shins vertical) using the recovery sequence hands away, then swing, then slide. Then then slam the legs down fast. All the rest relaxed.

Henley Royal Regatta today shows some of the best in the world, racing in the Finals. We have to imagine how they paddle and train at low rates; racing is done at up to 40. However on the 2-boat Henley course, if a crew is well ahead we may see them (from close up via drones), paddling at 25-28 in the second half of the race. In particular, the 4x crews are usually perfect: it's a fast boat and the crew have two sculls each.

I use the C2 Wods for training, which seems effective for test distances up to 10-20 minutes. Since March this year I warm up at 80-100W, then 120W average, rate 20-22, 84y, 76kg. Stroke 5.5 to 6W (Watts/Rating), but not yet 2W/kg save for very short pieces.

I must apologise, I parroted that bending of wrist from somewhere else and when watching a video of myself rowing, there isn't any bending.

Its seems that I had the watch slightly over my end of my ulna and it wasn't lying flat.

It's seems to work now and I'll give the HRM strap a shot today.

Many thanks for your input and have a nice week.

Regarding wrist HRMs: I've found them OK for cycling and walking, marginal for running (periods of bogus readings), and hopeless for rowing (consistent bogus readings). Tightening the strap helps a bit with running, but not rowing.

rdraheim wrote: ↑

July 7th, 2025, 4:40 am

...Any idea whether I should choose Other activity on my GFR45? I'm going to see today what data is exportable from SkillRow and from the watch.

You may be able to download "rowing" and "indoor rowing" as an activities on your FR 45. It was preloaded on my garmin FR 265. The app that loads activities is (I think) garmin connect IQ - different than the normal garmin connect app. IQ is where you get watch faces, etc.


Aside: Garmin heavily backed an ANT+ standard for fitness equipment. Concept2 also supported this. Garmin choose to have their watches not support the bluetooth equivalent called FTMS. But now ANT+ is dead, killed by encryption requirements. Everyone is moving to bluetooth FTMS. Google says "The Skillrow seems to be compatible with applications that utilize the FITness Machine Service (FTMS) protocol." Do not buy a high end garmin watch to connect to the skillrow until they support FTMS which should be shortly.

Tsnor wrote: ↑

July 7th, 2025, 9:29 am

Aside: Garmin heavily backed an ANT+ standard for fitness equipment. Concept2 also supported this. Garmin choose to have their watches not support the bluetooth equivalent called FTMS. But now ANT+ is dead, killed by encryption requirements.

Well, they stopped active development, but they keep selling stuff with it included.

Tsnor wrote: ↑

July 7th, 2025, 9:29 am

Everyone is moving to bluetooth FTMS. Google says "The Skillrow seems to be compatible with applications that utilize the FITness Machine Service (FTMS) protocol." Do not buy a high end garmin watch to connect to the skillrow until they support FTMS which should be shortly.

Does Google have a crystal globe? Garmin hasn't made any announcement off this kind, at all. Not even a hint in the ANT+ phase-out press release.

Please note that FTMS is an absolutely horrible protocol for rowing. It is actually a step backward compared to ANT+ for data richness. In essence it is just a distance and speed report every 1 sec. The PM5 data is much much richer and also event-driven (i.e. report on the end of the drive and recovery).