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The Most Productive Things That I Have Learned In The Last 4 Months Going From 2 Flat Pace For 500m To 1:59.5 Pace For
Posted: April 28th, 2025, 11:13 pm
by milansanremo
10,000m
1. Foot Placement along with what is between your foot and the foot rest. Absolutely a huge factor and don't stop until you get both correct. I ultimately have settled on the #5 setting and using medium thickness synthetic socks directly on the foot plate. My feet are 300mm in length and my inseam is 86.4 cm
2. Learning to relax and continuously working on getting the correct technique for your physique. Getting out of the mindset of perfecting the textbook rowing technique and experimenting with what is most efficient for you.
3. Learning to breathe with max efficiency with,"what works for you". If your inhale/, exhale pattern is different from classical, ," so be it".
4. Keeping the drag factor below 130. A lot of work done in this area and I have settled on+/- 125 (but I still don't fully understand it). Many say "think about it as gearing on a bike". As a lifetime cyclist, I view this idea as totally incorrect. To compensate for lost VO2 (due to aging), I was able to compete with younger cyclists by lowering cadence and using bigger gear ratios. I initially thought, though incorrect that using a higher drag factor would be productive for my progression. This idea proved to be false as I have found no analogy to "a higher drag factor= a bigger gear". I have found it highly counterproductive.
Re: The Most Productive Things That I Have Learned In The Last 4 Months Going From 2 Flat Pace For 500m To 1:59.5 Pace
Posted: April 29th, 2025, 2:04 am
by JaapvanE
milansanremo wrote: ↑April 28th, 2025, 11:13 pm
Many say "think about it as gearing on a bike". As a lifetime cyclist, I view this idea as totally incorrect. To compensate for lost VO2 (due to aging), I was able to compete with younger cyclists by lowering cadence and using bigger gear ratios. I initially thought, though incorrect that using a higher drag factor would be productive for my progression. This idea proved to be false as I have found no analogy to "a higher drag factor= a bigger gear". I have found it highly counterproductive.
As a cyclist, you go uphill in 21st gear? No, you chose the gear that works for you. Some use 1st gear to go up, some use 5th, depending on power ratio and personal preference etc.. But regardless of gear setting, the work performed stays the same. The only choice is few slow heavy rotations or many fast lighter rotations.
Same goes for dragfactor. The overall work done on the flywheel stays the same whether you choose to use DF70 or DF220. The only thing that changes is how you produce that power: few long slow strokes or many fast strokes. As moving up and down the slide also uses considerable energy, heavyweights tend to prefer lower strokerates if they can produce the forces needed. But regardless of setting, the same power is required for the same speed as the PM5 determines the dragfactor and includes it in the piwer calculations.
The analogy used is to contrast the people who mistakenly think it is a resistance dial which should be set to 10 for maximum effort. It isn't, as in theory one can have a high intensity workout at any dragfactor.
Using 'a higher gear' to compensate with younger cyclists goes against everything I was tought. As people age, muscles become slower indeed, but also less powerfull. Using lower cadance might be interesting, but leg power has to come from somewhere, and muscle force is degrading as well. Same goes for rowing. Typically you see people lower the dragfactor as they age, and let the boat run for a bit longer by slightly increase the recovery time. As DF is lower, you get a softer stroke (less forces on the back). Explosiveness is bit less in general as well, but most people here seem to reduce DF as they age, not increase it.
And realize that DF as much about finding a nice rhythm than it is about power. Rowing is a rhythmic sport, and having a bad catch kills the stroke. With DF at the right setting for your rhythm, you can be a lot more effective in putting power on the flywheel.
Re: The Most Productive Things That I Have Learned In The Last 4 Months Going From 2 Flat Pace For 500m To 1:59.5 Pace
Posted: April 29th, 2025, 8:35 am
by PleaseLockIn
JaapvanE wrote: ↑April 29th, 2025, 2:04 am
milansanremo wrote: ↑April 28th, 2025, 11:13 pm
Many say "think about it as gearing on a bike". As a lifetime cyclist, I view this idea as totally incorrect. To compensate for lost VO2 (due to aging), I was able to compete with younger cyclists by lowering cadence and using bigger gear ratios. I initially thought, though incorrect that using a higher drag factor would be productive for my progression. This idea proved to be false as I have found no analogy to "a higher drag factor= a bigger gear". I have found it highly counterproductive.
As a cyclist, you go uphill in 21st gear? No, you chose the gear that works for you. Some use 1st gear to go up, some use 5th, depending on power ratio and personal preference etc.. But regardless of gear setting, the work performed stays the same. The only choice is few slow heavy rotations or many fast lighter rotations.
Same goes for dragfactor. The overall work done on the flywheel stays the same whether you choose to use DF70 or DF220. The only thing that changes is how you produce that power: few long slow strokes or many fast strokes. As moving up and down the slide also uses considerable energy, heavyweights tend to prefer lower strokerates if they can produce the forces needed. But regardless of setting, the same power is required for the same speed as the PM5 determines the dragfactor and includes it in the piwer calculations.
The analogy used is to contrast the people who mistakenly think it is a resistance dial which should be set to 10 for maximum effort. It isn't, as in theory one can have a high intensity workout at any dragfactor.
Using 'a higher gear' to compensate with younger cyclists goes against everything I was tought. As people age, muscles become slower indeed, but also less powerfull. Using lower cadance might be interesting, but leg power has to come from somewhere, and muscle force is degrading as well. Same goes for rowing. Typically you see people lower the dragfactor as they age, and let the boat run for a bit longer by slightly increase the recovery time. As DF is lower, you get a softer stroke (less forces on the back). Explosiveness is bit less in general as well, but most people here seem to reduce DF as they age, not increase it.
And realize that DF as much about finding a nice rhythm than it is about power. Rowing is a rhythmic sport, and having a bad catch kills the stroke. With DF at the right setting for your rhythm, you can be a lot more effective in putting power on the flywheel.
Sometimes I wonder if the DF I am using (95) for steady state is too low for my rhythm. My coach says my catch is bad. Maybe that’s an issue…
As for cadence… there is a reason why 30r20 is very difficult - the rate. I often find my legs tire before my cardio in similar sessions.
But Milan - for 2. To be fair there is a reason why many parts of the technique is supposed to be best, in physics. But still some stuff… can differ. 4 depends because my drag factor is 180+ for max watt testing and for short sprints it can get over 130.
Must be working for you! I only managed to go from 2:02.x 500m to sub 8 2k in 3 months… though with inconsistent training, bad training (steady state too hard) and injuries. How do you keep improving quickly? Make my training more polarized, increase SS volume past BPP standards to break my plateau?
Re: The Most Productive Things That I Have Learned In The Last 4 Months Going From 2 Flat Pace For 500m To 1:59.5 Pace
Posted: April 29th, 2025, 9:35 am
by drluvguru
Drag factor's all about rhythm, not just power. If it's too low, your catch might suffer. That 30r20 grind is tough, but sounds like you're making great progress. Keep adjusting until it clicks.
Re: The Most Productive Things That I Have Learned In The Last 4 Months Going From 2 Flat Pace For 500m To 1:59.5 Pace
Posted: April 29th, 2025, 10:30 am
by Dangerscouse
milansanremo wrote: ↑April 28th, 2025, 11:13 pm
10,000m
1. Foot Placement along with what is between your foot and the foot rest. Absolutely a huge factor and don't stop until you get both correct. I ultimately have settled on the #5 setting and using medium thickness synthetic socks directly on the foot plate. My feet are 300mm in length and my inseam is 86.4 cm
2. Learning to relax and continuously working on getting the correct technique for your physique. Getting out of the mindset of perfecting the textbook rowing technique and experimenting with what is most efficient for you.
3. Learning to breathe with max efficiency with,"what works for you". If your inhale/, exhale pattern is different from classical, ," so be it".
4. Keeping the drag factor below 130. A lot of work done in this area and I have settled on+/- 125 (but I still don't fully understand it). Many say "think about it as gearing on a bike". As a lifetime cyclist, I view this idea as totally incorrect. To compensate for lost VO2 (due to aging), I was able to compete with younger cyclists by lowering cadence and using bigger gear ratios. I initially thought, though incorrect that using a higher drag factor would be productive for my progression. This idea proved to be false as I have found no analogy to "a higher drag factor= a bigger gear". I have found it highly counterproductive.
You might have noticed that I'm a massive fan of caveats and assessing everything you do to see if it works better or worse, so I agree with all of this.
Drag factor is VERY subjective. I know an excellent erger who rows everything at 200+, but I've also seen a very strong erger row a 1:21.8 500m at r21 & df110. So there are massive variations.
With regards to relaxing, you need to perfect a form of relaxed tension. Enough tension to create a strong chain of power movement, but turning it off when you don't need it anymore.
It can be easily summed up with 'usually chase the question mark, and sometimes the exclamation point' and for a seemingly simple exercise it is surprisingly technical.
Re: The Most Productive Things That I Have Learned In The Last 4 Months Going From 2 Flat Pace For 500m To 1:59.5 Pace
Posted: April 29th, 2025, 2:51 pm
by milansanremo
JaapvanE wrote: ↑April 29th, 2025, 2:04 am
milansanremo wrote: ↑April 28th, 2025, 11:13 pm
Many say "think about it as gearing on a bike". As a lifetime cyclist, I view this idea as totally incorrect. To compensate for lost VO2 (due to aging), I was able to compete with younger cyclists by lowering cadence and using bigger gear ratios. I initially thought, though incorrect that using a higher drag factor would be productive for my progression. This idea proved to be false as I have found no analogy to "a higher drag factor= a bigger gear". I have found it highly counterproductive.
As a cyclist, you go uphill in 21st gear? No, you chose the gear that works for you. Some use 1st gear to go up, some use 5th, depending on power ratio and personal preference etc.. But regardless of gear setting, the work performed stays the same. The only choice is few slow heavy rotations or many fast lighter rotations.
Same goes for dragfactor. The overall work done on the flywheel stays the same whether you choose to use DF70 or DF220. The only thing that changes is how you produce that power: few long slow strokes or many fast strokes. As moving up and down the slide also uses considerable energy, heavyweights tend to prefer lower strokerates if they can produce the forces needed. But regardless of setting, the same power is required for the same speed as the PM5 determines the dragfactor and includes it in the piwer calculations.
The analogy used is to contrast the people who mistakenly think it is a resistance dial which should be set to 10 for maximum effort. It isn't, as in theory one can have a high intensity workout at any dragfactor.
Using 'a higher gear' to compensate with younger cyclists goes against everything I was tought. As people age, muscles become slower indeed, but also less powerfull. Using lower cadance might be interesting, but leg power has to come from somewhere, and muscle force is degrading as well. Same goes for rowing. Typically you see people lower the dragfactor as they age, and let the boat run for a bit longer by slightly increase the recovery time. As DF is lower, you get a softer stroke (less forces on the back). Explosiveness is bit less in general as well, but most people here seem to reduce DF as they age, not increase it.
And realize that DF as much about finding a nice rhythm than it is about power. Rowing is a rhythmic sport, and having a bad catch kills the stroke. With DF at the right setting for your rhythm, you can be a lot more effective in putting power on the flywheel.
Am I correct in saying that
If I increase the DF from 125 to 140 and maintain an r25 on both settings that I will go faster assuming that there is no change in technique/efficiency of stroke? Conversely , at DF140/r25 and to achieve the same speed, what is the conversion factor for the r at a DF of 125? If that is correct...then I am wrong in saying that "the analogy to using a bigger gear is incorrect".
Additionally, if the above is true, then raising the DF for a 30/r20 workout would be a dynamic strength building workout?
Am I still offbase or am I beginning to grasp the underlying fundamentals behind this concept?
Thanks
John
Re: The Most Productive Things That I Have Learned In The Last 4 Months Going From 2 Flat Pace For 500m To 1:59.5 Pace
Posted: April 29th, 2025, 3:08 pm
by JaapvanE
milansanremo wrote: ↑April 29th, 2025, 2:51 pm
If I increase the DF from 125 to 140 and maintain an r25 on both settings that I will go faster assuming that there is no change in technique/efficiency of stroke?
If you could maintain identical strokes, you indeed would get more distance per stroke at DF140, and thus go faster. BUT, and here is the big difference with cycling: the stroke will change almost by definition. With higher DF you will encounter a slower flywheel and it will fight back harder to accelerate. So ratio will change, and thus the amount of power you'll produce. But robots, the actual machines that just blindly deliver power without feeling how hard it is, will just do that.
milansanremo wrote: ↑April 29th, 2025, 2:51 pm
Conversely , at DF140/r25 and to achieve the same speed, what is the conversion factor for the r at a DF of 125? If that is correct...then I am wrong in saying that "the analogy to using a bigger gear is incorrect".
There is some conversion possible, but it is extremely limited as you also change the feel and timing of the stroke. DF is much more about timing and personal preference.
milansanremo wrote: ↑April 29th, 2025, 2:51 pm
Additionally, if the above is true, then raising the DF for a 30/r20 workout would be a dynamic strength building workout?
Am I still offbase or am I beginning to grasp the underlying fundamentals behind this concept?
You're beginning to grasp it, but realise that timing is everything in rowing. On a bike there is not really a thing as a missed rotation. On rowing, it is all about getting a good catch (i.e. flywheel isn't too fast to miss it, nor is it too slow that you slam into it) and not missing your stroke. That is the big game of rowing, and the huge difference with cycling. And setting the right DF is crucial in getting your timing right.
Raising the DF for a specific workout is done by some teams, but most use a single DF, as it engraves the timing in their people. Often it is related to the boat they are aiming for (DF130 to DF135 for a skiff). If you want to have a more power-based workout, just drop the strokerate by waiting a bit in the recovery.
Re: The Most Productive Things That I Have Learned In The Last 4 Months Going From 2 Flat Pace For 500m To 1:59.5 Pace
Posted: April 29th, 2025, 3:39 pm
by milansanremo
JaapvanE wrote: ↑April 29th, 2025, 3:08 pm
milansanremo wrote: ↑April 29th, 2025, 2:51 pm
If I increase the DF from 125 to 140 and maintain an r25 on both settings that I will go faster assuming that there is no change in technique/efficiency of stroke?
If you could maintain identical strokes, you indeed would get more distance per stroke at DF140, and thus go faster. BUT, and here is the big difference with cycling: the stroke will change almost by definition. With higher DF you will encounter a slower flywheel and it will fight back harder to accelerate. So ratio will change, and thus the amount of power you'll produce. But robots, the actual machines that just blindly deliver power without feeling how hard it is, will just do that.
milansanremo wrote: ↑April 29th, 2025, 2:51 pm
Conversely , at DF140/r25 and to achieve the same speed, what is the conversion factor for the r at a DF of 125? If that is correct...then I am wrong in saying that "the analogy to using a bigger gear is incorrect".
There is some conversion possible, but it is extremely limited as you also change the feel and timing of the stroke. DF is much more about timing and personal preference.
milansanremo wrote: ↑April 29th, 2025, 2:51 pm
Additionally, if the above is true, then raising the DF for a 30/r20 workout would be a dynamic strength building workout?
Am I still offbase or am I beginning to grasp the underlying fundamentals behind this concept?
You're beginning to grasp it, but realise that timing is everything in rowing. On a bike there is not really a thing as a missed rotation. On rowing, it is all about getting a good catch (i.e. flywheel isn't too fast to miss it, nor is it too slow that you slam into it) and not missing your stroke. That is the big game of rowing, and the huge difference with cycling. And setting the right DF is crucial in getting your timing right.
Raising the DF for a specific workout is done by some teams, but most use a single DF, as it engraves the timing in their people. Often it is related to the boat they are aiming for (DF130 to DF135 for a skiff). If you want to have a more power-based workout, just drop the strokerate by waiting a bit in the recovery.
I very much appreciate your time and effort in replying.
Once you've gotten your pedal stroke ingrained after decades as a Cyclist, you learn how to take advantage of the millisecond recovery that is offered in the "dead zone" of the revolution. This becomes a huge advantage once you perfect it. Those milliseconds at 110 cadence add up. Alex can verify this.
I wonder and I (probably already know the answer) if world class rowers do this much more effectively than others ?
Since the time lag between ignition is greater (much more so) than cyclists, it seems that someone who is very efficient at this will have a substantial advantage over others. They would have a much higher ability to get more oxygenated blood to already starving muscles.
Don't feel obligated to answer, it does seem logical to me.
Re: The Most Productive Things That I Have Learned In The Last 4 Months Going From 2 Flat Pace For 500m To 1:59.5 Pace
Posted: April 29th, 2025, 8:42 pm
by milansanremo
Dangerscouse wrote: ↑April 29th, 2025, 10:30 am
milansanremo wrote: ↑April 28th, 2025, 11:13 pm
10,000m
1. Foot Placement along with what is between your foot and the foot rest. Absolutely a huge factor and don't stop until you get both correct. I ultimately have settled on the #5 setting and using medium thickness synthetic socks directly on the foot plate. My feet are 300mm in length and my inseam is 86.4 cm
2. Learning to relax and continuously working on getting the correct technique for your physique. Getting out of the mindset of perfecting the textbook rowing technique and experimenting with what is most efficient for you.
3. Learning to breathe with max efficiency with,"what works for you". If your inhale/, exhale pattern is different from classical, ," so be it".
4. Keeping the drag factor below 130. A lot of work done in this area and I have settled on+/- 125 (but I still don't fully understand it). Many say "think about it as gearing on a bike". As a lifetime cyclist, I view this idea as totally incorrect. To compensate for lost VO2 (due to aging), I was able to compete with younger cyclists by lowering cadence and using bigger gear ratios. I initially thought, though incorrect that using a higher drag factor would be productive for my progression. This idea proved to be false as I have found no analogy to "a higher drag factor= a bigger gear". I have found it highly counterproductive.
You might have noticed that I'm a massive fan of caveats and assessing everything you do to see if it works better or worse, so I agree with all of this.
Drag factor is VERY subjective. I know an excellent erger who rows everything at 200+, but I've also seen a very strong erger row a 1:21.8 500m at r21 & df110. So there are massive variations.
With regards to relaxing, you need to perfect a form of relaxed tension. Enough tension to create a strong chain of power movement, but turning it off when you don't need it anymore.
It can be easily summed up with 'usually chase the question mark, and sometimes the exclamation point' and for a seemingly simple exercise it is surprisingly technical.
I tried your r20 workout today. 10k like yesterday at the same perceived effort but about 9sec slower 500m pace. After 10 minutes the average HR was about 10 beats lower.for the duration of the workout.
HOWEVER....I could hardly get off the machine. My legs felt like I just finished a massive weight workout. That's the first time my legs have felt like that after a C2 workout.
So, in my mind, this type of workout is a solid strength building workout and I have confirmation that I am using my quadriceps...lol.
Re: The Most Productive Things That I Have Learned In The Last 4 Months Going From 2 Flat Pace For 500m To 1:59.5 Pace
Posted: May 7th, 2025, 2:55 am
by manning_sad
Given the subjective nature of drag factor & the varied techniques of strong rowers, how would u suggest someone find their optimal drag factor? Is it purely trial and error, or are there specific cues/sensations to look for to ensure efficient power transfer?
Re: The Most Productive Things That I Have Learned In The Last 4 Months Going From 2 Flat Pace For 500m To 1:59.5 Pace
Posted: May 7th, 2025, 10:22 am
by JaapvanE
manning_sad wrote: ↑May 7th, 2025, 2:55 am
Given the subjective nature of drag factor & the varied techniques of strong rowers, how would u suggest someone find their optimal drag factor? Is it purely trial and error, or are there specific cues/sensations to look for to ensure efficient power transfer?
Due to injury I once started at DF69 and slowly increased it to where I was happy. I was only allowed to increase DF if I was pain free for three weeks. Being a heavyweight I like low stroke rates, but I noticed I still missed catches or struggled to have a good catch. The flywheel was simply too fast for me. With training I improved, but it never felt quite right. It wasn't a natural rhythm, but a forced one dictated by a too fast flywheel not slowing down fast enough.
A too high DF feels if you are slamming into a too sliw flywheel, creating a lot of stress. No fun either.
Re: The Most Productive Things That I Have Learned In The Last 4 Months Going From 2 Flat Pace For 500m To 1:59.5 Pace
Posted: May 11th, 2025, 6:16 am
by Dangerscouse
manning_sad wrote: ↑May 7th, 2025, 2:55 am
Given the subjective nature of drag factor & the varied techniques of strong rowers, how would u suggest someone find their optimal drag factor? Is it purely trial and error, or are there specific cues/sensations to look for to ensure efficient power transfer?
Ime it's more of a general feeling of comfort than anything else. It just feels too heavy or too light to me, but I'd also comment that you don't need to focus on it too much, as for most sessions it won't make much of a difference to what you're capable of.
I'd say trial and error is the best method, but don't react too quickly as it can take a few sessions to really know if it feels right or not.