Follow up question....thank you

General discussion on Training. How to get better on your erg, how to use your erg to get better at another sport, or anything else about improving your abilities.
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milansanremo
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Follow up question....thank you

Post by milansanremo » January 17th, 2025, 12:00 am

As discussed in my first post... I'm a beginner.
I'm interested in the correlation of using interval training , specifically between running and rowing. As a young runner I found a strong suggestion that the average time you could achieve from an interval session of 10 x400m with 1 minute rest would roughly predict ones rested performance at 1600m racing.
I found an installed workout on my C2 of 500m intervals with 1 minute rest. If there is somewhat of a correlation I think this would be a part of a plan for training towards progression over a 2k rowing distance?
Over the last two weeks I have been doing this workout every two days. Using a 10 interval format I have progressed from 2:11 average to 2:01 today with several under 1:55.
Do you think that this is a somewhat reliable prediction methodology for a 2k All-out time?
My current plan is to keep doing this until I sense a stall in improvement ....then rest up and go for a 2k benchmark time.
Thoughts?
I am still making adjustments with the foot platform contact point...both in height and using various types of shoes...bare feet... different types of socks...etc. This area seems to be quite complicated and could very well be athlete specific... though not sure.
Thanks again in advance for all of your help so far.

gvcormac
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Re: Follow up question....thank you

Post by gvcormac » January 17th, 2025, 12:19 am

When I was 40s, my rowing and running times were comparable (40 mins/10k). In my (late) 60s I find my running pace has slowed a bit (41 mins) and my running pace a lot (51 mins).

That said, I do think running and rowing are comparable in that they can elicit VO2max fairly readily. Other cardio, not so much. Bike (or Bike Erg) perhaps, but you need a lot of leg to stress your heart/lungs to the max.

Dangerscouse
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Re: Follow up question....thank you

Post by Dangerscouse » January 17th, 2025, 1:29 am

I'm not a big fan of 2k predictors, other than just doing a 2k.

The shorter the distance, the harder it is to reliably compare, so if you want something that is generally considered the best prediction, you should do 4 x 1k 5r.

Having said that, 10 x 500m 1r is a tough workout, and the short rest will be a test and will be helpful.

You might be overcomplicating the feet issue, but you do need to find what feels comfortable and you feel works.
51 HWT; 6' 4"; 1k= 3:09; 2k= 6:36; 5k= 17:19; 6k= 20:47; 10k= 35:46 30mins= 8,488m 60mins= 16,618m HM= 1:16.47; FM= 2:40:41; 50k= 3:16:09; 100k= 7:52:44; 12hrs = 153km

"You reap what you row"

Instagram: stuwenman

Sakly
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Re: Follow up question....thank you

Post by Sakly » January 17th, 2025, 1:41 am

As Stu mentioned, I also find 4x1k is a better predictor, aside from a real 2k, which is best. For me 4x1k with 3:30 rest was spot on for my 2k splits. 8x500 with 2min rest were faster, so probably the same with 1min rest are near to 2k splits as well, but I find 500m is too short to feel the discomfort and train the mental side of a 2k :lol:
Male - '80 - 82kg - 177cm - Start rowErg Jan 2022
1': 358m
4': 1217m
30'r20: 8068m
30': 8,283m
60': 16,222m
100m: 0:15.9
500m: 1:26.0
1k: 3:07.8
2k: 6:37.1
5k: 17:26.2
6k: 21:03.5
10k: 36:01.5
HM: 1:18:40.1
FM: 2:52:32.6
My log

iain
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Re: Follow up question....thank you

Post by iain » January 17th, 2025, 5:46 am

The reason 500s are a poor predictor for 2k is that it is possible to maintain a higher rating (Strokes per min) than during a 2k. Some have said 6 x 500 r1' at 2k rating is a predictor for 2k but I find it is quicker, but so long as your rating wasn't too unsustainable I would say you should be able to hold that pace for 1600 and speed up for a faster average on a 2k. Predictors are very personal as while they may stress the system similarly mentally they are easier than an all out 2k. 4 x 1k is better as mentally part of each is similar to that 500 of the 2k. However huge difference in relative times, with some claiming 6 min rest gives 1S slower than 2k while others say 3 min rest is 1S faster! Hence Stu's response. If you don't fancy venturing into unknown on all out 2k, try a mile (1609M). Mentally easier and usually just over a second faster than 2k.
56, lightweight in pace and by gravity. Currently training 3-4 times a week after a break to slowly regain the pitiful fitness I achieved a few years ago. Free Spirit, come join us http://www.freespiritsrowing.com/forum/

Nomark
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Re: Follow up question....thank you

Post by Nomark » January 17th, 2025, 6:53 am

I started training in a similar way, rowing a 1k every day and my times kept falling with the intention to up it to 1500 and then 2k and carry it through. But a week into that plan I discovered this site and the benefits of longer distances at slower paces.

I highly recommend you cut down the interval training to a couple of times a week and on other days row 5-10k at a much slower pace - where you can maintain a conversation still, around 2:25-2:30 I'd guess. It was very counter intuitive to me but your fitness and cardio vascular system will reap the benefits and you will find your fitness improving and interval times dripping even faster. I'd also suggest you try some slightly longet intervals, like 6x750, 4x1000, 3x1500 etc. to mix things up
M 1982 6'1 205lbs

milansanremo
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Re: Follow up question....thank you

Post by milansanremo » January 17th, 2025, 1:45 pm

Thank you ALL so much!
The majority conclusion in regard to 4 x 1000m being a better predictor makes perfect sense. Even with the little time that I have on the C2, I already know that the difference between doing 500 or 1000m intervals is substantial.
Since I started this endeavor, I haven't had a day where those muscles behind my shoulders weren't sore.
The recommendation for some long slower workouts for sure is good. Since I'm home where the C2 is...I think I'm going to start doing a morning easy 5k (like the easy AM run back in the running days) before something else in the PM .

Nomark
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Re: Follow up question....thank you

Post by Nomark » January 17th, 2025, 1:47 pm

Rest is also important (and frustrating!) so don't be shy to take a day off for recovery especially if you are feeling aches and pains.
M 1982 6'1 205lbs

milansanremo
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Re: Follow up question....thank you

Post by milansanremo » January 17th, 2025, 1:58 pm

I meant to ask if there exists, a scientific methodology in regard to exact foot placement and the contact device (shoe, sock, bare feet, specific shoe)?
I have seen so many mixed messages in regard to this one concept. I feel that for me personally it is extremely important to get this right.
No matter how hard I go, how I position myself, etc. I feel zero strain in any muscles below my waist. My legs basically feel nothing no matter how hard I rocket with them during the initial movement. If I knew how, I could literally put 3x the amount of force/torque into the machine.

gvcormac
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Re: Follow up question....thank you

Post by gvcormac » January 17th, 2025, 2:03 pm

Although your legs do most of the work in an absolute sense, they don't do more work than your arms, as a fraction of their overall capacity. Running or cycling will do a better job of taxing your legs.

Dangerscouse
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Re: Follow up question....thank you

Post by Dangerscouse » January 17th, 2025, 4:47 pm

milansanremo wrote:
January 17th, 2025, 1:58 pm
I meant to ask if there exists, a scientific methodology in regard to exact foot placement and the contact device (shoe, sock, bare feet, specific shoe)?
I have seen so many mixed messages in regard to this one concept. I feel that for me personally it is extremely important to get this right.
No matter how hard I go, how I position myself, etc. I feel zero strain in any muscles below my waist. My legs basically feel nothing no matter how hard I rocket with them during the initial movement. If I knew how, I could literally put 3x the amount of force/torque into the machine.
I don't know of any 'contact device' advice other than find what works best for you, but apart from not using soft running shoe soles, there's probably very little to gain from whatever you choose. The general consensus for shoes is Nike Metcons, Reebok Nanos or some others use Vibram Barefoot amongst other options, eg weightlifting shoes etc

I'd recommend a simple exercise to test your technique, which is basically alternating the pressure on your legs. Row with circa 75% pressure on your left leg, then 75% with the right then 50/50 and repeat.

You're trying to build a mind muscle connection so you can feel the difference in what you're doing. There's a good chance that you're legs are just too damn strong to really register much at all. I've got fairly skinny legs, but i don't feel very much at all either, so don't convince yourself that they should be burning after each stroke or anything like that.

You also need to imagine your jumping horizontally rather than pulling the handle, hopefully this will also help you see a difference, but it might just be as simple as you need to adapt and find incremental gains from other areas and/or experience.

What drag factor do you use? That might be too low for what suits your physiology.
51 HWT; 6' 4"; 1k= 3:09; 2k= 6:36; 5k= 17:19; 6k= 20:47; 10k= 35:46 30mins= 8,488m 60mins= 16,618m HM= 1:16.47; FM= 2:40:41; 50k= 3:16:09; 100k= 7:52:44; 12hrs = 153km

"You reap what you row"

Instagram: stuwenman

MPx
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Re: Follow up question....thank you

Post by MPx » January 17th, 2025, 7:00 pm

Standard "wisdom" on foot placement is to set the height so that your ankle bone is in line with the top of the rail - this works well for most people most of the time.

If you are doing an utra sprint (100m or 1min) then consider raising it a hole or two. This will restrict your stroke length - but that is usually lowered anyway to hit the huge rate required - and it will increase the horizontal component of your stroke force which will help reduce "lift" off the seat.
If you are doing longer steady state stuff, some people are more comfortable with a lower foot position.

The wisdom on shoes centres on having as little absorbsion material (air/sponge/etc) between the foot and the pad as poss so that all of the force goes into the erg and not into compressing the sole of the shoe - so the exact opposite of a running shoe is required. For some this is barefoot, some just socks, but for most its some form of solid soled shoes.
Mike - 67 HWT 183

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Tsnor
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Re: Follow up question....thank you

Post by Tsnor » January 17th, 2025, 9:58 pm

milansanremo wrote:
January 17th, 2025, 1:58 pm

No matter how hard I go, how I position myself, etc. I feel zero strain in any muscles below my waist. My legs basically feel nothing no matter how hard I rocket with them during the initial movement. If I knew how, I could literally put 3x the amount of force/torque into the machine.
Your body will not fight one muscle group with another. At a guess you are pulling with arms and back at the same time you are using your legs, and your body is not letting your strong legs tear your weaker arms and back apart. Look at Sequencing. At the catch get your back in a strong position, hang your arms straight with no elbow bend, only then drive those legs. After the legs are mostly done then swing the hips, don't use arm muscles at all until your hips are mostly done. Back stays in the same strong position throughout - back shape does not change. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zQ82RYIFLN8&t=38s

Do some body weight squats (video on youtube if you don't know technique). The first part of the rowing stroke is like squats. Do a bunch until your legs feel the burn. That is what the first 1/3 of your stroke is like.

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