10 km SS and SR increase required to maintain pace

[DJ1972]

Hi,

May be a silly question or already discussed topic.

After pausing my BPP at week 7, I challenged myself for the Holiday challenge with SS sessions of 10 km for as many days as I can. So far I achieved 6 days in a row the expected target. No issue of recovering between days, no muscle pains, and I can have an easy chat during the whole exercise.

However, on all sessions, I have observed that I need to increase unconsciously at first my SR and then maintaining it to 21-22 after the 8 km mark to maintain desired pace. I wonder why that is ? Is it the fatigue issue ? physical or mental lassitude ? Not sure.

[ahooton]

I think it’s a normal tendency, as you tire and breath that little bit faster, you mind and body will find a natural cadence. I certainly do if I don’t curb it and ensure I concentrate on stroke rate. I wouldn’t worry about it too much unless you strictly want to stick to a certain stroke rate. They look like good workouts and if you able to converse through them and recover well for the next day - all good.

Maybe consider mixing the volume up with some interval work as it very quickly gets boring doing the same workout day after day. Always good to vary intensity to work different energy systems.

There will be people with far more insight than me on this who I’m sure will comment and advise.

Good luck getting the challenge done. 200k in a month is a solid effort.

[JaapvanE]

Happens to me as well. My muscles get tired, reducing distance per stroke, and thus strokerate goes up.

[Sakly]

I don't see this happening on my longer rows, but I tend to rate low anyway. If I row blind, it's more that the rate stays absolutely stable, but the pace compensates fatigue and I get 1-2s slower (on a not so well recovered day).
Yesterday I did a HM at r19-20, very stable in pace and rate, but only focused on pace. Fatigue only shows up in a slight HR increase.

[jamesg]

If you use Ergdata, there's a page where we can see a dozen or so parameters, including average and max handle force, pull speed and length. Maybe you can see what's changing.

A suspect might be the your low ratings and/or use of high forces to compensate for a short pull or high drag.

Style has to include the use of correct sequences during pull and recovery, which can affect how and which muscle groups we use. Any style that does not allow full use of the legs is to be avoided.

Suggest you keep under control your indices such as Watts/kg and Watts/Rating. Your values (2W/kg and 7.5W-min) are fine for general training, as you can see in the C2 logbook rankings, but suggest you can indeed do more; not that doing a 10k fast every day will ever be easy.

[Dangerscouse]

I'd assume that if you're unconsciously increasing the stroke rate, it could be slight fatigue or you're just moving towards a more natural stroke rate. We all naturally fall into a stroke rate range that suits us,

I'd also say not to worry about it, as there's no strict need to maintain a specific stroke rate as it's more about the effort

[JaapvanE]

If you use Ergdata, there's a page where we can see a dozen or so parameters, including average and max handle force, pull speed and length. Maybe you can see what's changing.

ErgData can't show Distance per Stroke. But if pace is stable, and strokerate goes up, distance per stroke MUST go down. Drivetime might reveal whether time is lost in drive or recovery, but generally speaking, the drivetime becomes a bit longer (reducing drive speed), and recovery gets rushed (reducing force needed to accelerate the flywheel) causing a weaker stroke. At least, that is what ORM's data shows when we look for fatigue setting in.

Regarding not seeing this behaviour: please realise that a PM5 is an extremely blunt instrument in all its metrics. So it could very well be that a strokerate of 19.5 deteriorates into a 20.4, without ever seeing the difference on the monitor.

[jamesg]

strokerate of 19.5 deteriorates into a 20.4, without ever seeing the difference on the monitor.

In that case we see 19 or 20 in PM, which is good enough.

[Sakly]

strokerate of 19.5 deteriorates into a 20.4, without ever seeing the difference on the monitor.

In that case we see 19 or 20 in PM, which is good enough.

Both values round to 20 on a PM5, this is what JaapvanE wanted to point out.
I think it's not needed to overthink such stuff. If you WANT to have exact metrics for stroke rate and/or pace, you can focus on these. Rate can be controlled by time, too, not only by shown rate of the monitor.

[JaapvanE]

I think it's not needed to overthink such stuff. If you WANT to have exact metrics for stroke rate and/or pace, you can focus on these. Rate can be controlled by time, too, not only by shown rate of the monitor.

True, overthinking stuff is a killjoy. And as said by some others, shortening up the stroke might not be a bad thing as people might leave a forced stroke rhythm and move to their natural movement.

For me, it is interesting to see when fatigue sets in, as I aim for it to move to a later point in a 10K or HM. As most metrics are stable across sessions, it is a way for me to see a kind of progress and keep motivated. But that is just me being me.

[DJ1972]

Hi,

Thank you all for the fruitful arguments and views. I did not think this would bring such a discussion.

I raised the point as I was trying to understand the phenomenon. It happened 6 times out 6, while I focused specifically on maintaining 'my' technique from start to end.

If you use Ergdata, there's a page where we can see a dozen or so parameters, including average and max handle force, pull speed and length. Maybe you can see what's changing.

Except for retrieving the .csv file and calculating the Distance/Stroke, I couldn't find a way to access other parameters. I don't have a personal trainer and don't have the time and money for one so, in addition to liking the scientific process of it, analyzing data may have been my way to improve the efficiency of the whole technique.

ErgData can't show Distance per Stroke. But if pace is stable, and strokerate goes up, distance per stroke MUST go down. Drivetime might reveal whether time is lost in drive or recovery, but generally speaking, the drivetime becomes a bit longer (reducing drive speed), and recovery gets rushed (reducing force needed to accelerate the flywheel) causing a weaker stroke. At least, that is what ORM's data shows when we look for fatigue setting in.

Regarding not seeing this behaviour: please realise that a PM5 is an extremely blunt instrument in all its metrics. So it could very well be that a strokerate of 19.5 deteriorates into a 20.4, without ever seeing the difference on the monitor.

I plotted distance/stroke vs time and, as you described it, distance per stroke decreases as stroke rate increases. By understanding this, I thought I could pinpoint if I make mistake in the drive or the recovery phase. I keep reading (on this forum) about the losses of Watts if technique is not properly applied. Is my recovery to quick at the end that it increases SR?

I don't believe the coarse reading of the PM5 plays a role while reading 19 (values 18.5 to 19.5) or 20 (values 19.5 to 20.5); the general trend of the SR curve shows an increase.

I think it's not needed to overthink such stuff. If you WANT to have exact metrics for stroke rate and/or pace, you can focus on these. Rate can be controlled by time, too, not only by shown rate of the monitor.

Probably overthinking but also just killing the time while rowing and having selected the wrong boring film (which cannot be changed) during exercise .

and this has made me think about my next question: Is anybody using PM5 data to evaluate the efficiency of their technique?

[Sakly]

I think it's not needed to overthink such stuff. If you WANT to have exact metrics for stroke rate and/or pace, you can focus on these. Rate can be controlled by time, too, not only by shown rate of the monitor.

True, overthinking stuff is a killjoy. And as said by some others, shortening up the stroke might not be a bad thing as people might leave a forced stroke rhythm and move to their natural movement.

For me, it is interesting to see when fatigue sets in, as I aim for it to move to a later point in a 10K or HM. As most metrics are stable across sessions, it is a way for me to see a kind of progress and keep motivated. But that is just me being me.

I typically have a very stable stroke rhythm, even rowing blind. Recent 2 hour sessions show typically r17-18, where I land naturally. Point of fatigue kicking in is very different for same sessions, as this highly relates to the grade of recovery I have.
I only track progress in steadies by looking at pace to HR ratio over time. Of course, I track progress in seeing better times in my various TTs or challenges as well.

[Sakly]

Is anybody using PM5 data to evaluate the efficiency of their technique?

Of course. If the pace stays stable at the same stroke rate, I know I have the same efficiency, even if I change stroke technique.
If pace drops at the same rate, I know efficiency drops.
If I'm interested in knowing the detail, where I lose efficiency/power, I need to look at metrics James pointed out. I mostly don't do this, as I feel where I lack power and am aware of it.

[JaapvanE]

Is anybody using PM5 data to evaluate the efficiency of their technique?

I structurally use the data from OpenRowingMonitor and upload them to RowsAndAll.com . Not to see efficiency per se, but where I can do better. It is fatigue setting in (drop in distance per stroke vs strokerate), transitions (i.e. the force curve), etc.

[Tsnor]

FWIW you are not at steady state on this row.

Your heart rate is rising throughout the piece. From mid 140s to mid 150s at constant power. Cardiac drift.

You are likely taking one breath per stroke, and raising the stroke rate gives you a bit more air. Your body is doing it automatically. The higher stroke rate is better and more efficient for you. Long term you need either slower splits to get into long/slow zone, or stop doing this daily or accept that after 4-6 weeks of this you will start to cook. You should be fine for a few weeks. (And some reasonable people train daily at threshold heart rate for months/years, so if you want to then give it a try.)