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Path to 1:59.x 20r20 in two months
Posted: November 24th, 2024, 2:11 am
by PleaseLockIn
Where I live rowing is not a very developed sport, so even at a strong, prestigious university, the entry standards are relatively low. Still, the standard is 1:59.x 20 minute at stroke rate 20, which is still a significant gap from what I am capable of. I know I can row 1:54.8 at r31 (Concept 2) for 500m after rowing a technique-focused r19 5000m and a lot of other training, and that row was not max effort. In fact I was speeding up to 1:51-1:52 at the end of the sprint and I knew I could still hold it as long as I kept my discipline for some time.
The team is openweight - weight is not considered much. Therefore I have scope to bulk up. I am now 67 kg (but NOT dehydrated weight). Should I eat a protein bar after every workout, or even snack twice a day and eat 3 meals a day?
I am currently in the BPP. Should I crosstrain more, or do more weightlifting, or do all 5 optional sessions in a week? Bear in mind i have finals...
Re: Path to 1:59.x 20r20 in two months
Posted: November 24th, 2024, 3:25 am
by Sakly
I think you need to focus on technique and stroke efficiency/power.
Don't know how long you are in the game of rowing, but a 500m 1:55@r31 shows a relatively weak stroke compared to your target of a 200W/r20.
For reference: recently another friend of my gym buddy joined our training routine, which involves a c2 rower in the gym as well. He had no experience in rowing at all and is ca. 180cm and 69kg, so very near your stats. After 3 month in (3x/week strength training, only very few meters on the erg during warmup) he pulled a 7:41 2k and a 1:35.x 500m. Don't know the rates exactly, but I think the 2k was at 30-31 and the 500m a bit higher at 32-33 probably.
I could watch his technique and give him hints where to adjust and getting more out of the strokes and that helped tremendously. Same applies to skierg, his outputs skyrocketed after adjusting the technique.
Obviously, strength training helps, but stroke technique is way more important to get it right.
Re: Path to 1:59.x 20r20 in two months
Posted: November 24th, 2024, 4:25 am
by JaapvanE
Sakly wrote: ↑November 24th, 2024, 3:25 am
I think you need to focus on technique and stroke efficiency/power.
Don't know how long you are in the game of rowing, but a 500m 1:55@r31 shows a relatively weak stroke compared to your target of a 200W/r20.
My thoughts as well. The mentioned 5K and 2K times are indeed on the weaker side (weight might be a thing here) and use quite a high rate to achieve them. My advice is also to learn to make this long heavy strokes and become more efficient. As they say on the water: "Let the boat run" and don't rush the recovery. There is a reason they require rate 20: it requires you to be efficient and technically good rower. Achieving that actually isn't as easy as it might sound as you need to put in almost twice the power at a much lower strokrate.
Re: Path to 1:59.x 20r20 in two months
Posted: November 24th, 2024, 4:35 am
by alex9026
A lot of your questions can be answered with "it depends"
You can get stronger without "bulking".
You can meet your body's protein requirements without supplements. Protein bars are junk and expensive, try half a dozen eggs instead. Or a pot of Skyr and piece of fruit if in a hurry. The number of meals a day are irrelevant at the end of the day, eat in a habit that suits you. I'm quite flexible, at home I'll graze all day, on a work day (13 hours inc travel) I'll just take one large meal and small snack. Some guys on here fast through the morning, though I wouldn't recommend that to an active 18 year old overthinking his training...
If you want to focus on rowing, row more. Stick to the plan. If you want to get stronger, lift more. If you feel like cross training because you don't fancy a session on the Erg, do it. Just don't go run 10k if your body isn't adapted to such activity...
Re: Path to 1:59.x 20r20 in two months
Posted: November 24th, 2024, 6:19 am
by PleaseLockIn
Sakly wrote: ↑November 24th, 2024, 3:25 am
I think you need to focus on technique and stroke efficiency/power.
Don't know how long you are in the game of rowing, but a 500m 1:55@r31 shows a relatively weak stroke compared to your target of a 200W/r20.
For reference: recently another friend of my gym buddy joined our training routine, which involves a c2 rower in the gym as well. He had no experience in rowing at all and is ca. 180cm and 69kg, so very near your stats. After 3 month in (3x/week strength training, only very few meters on the erg during warmup) he pulled a 7:41 2k and a 1:35.x 500m. Don't know the rates exactly, but I think the 2k was at 30-31 and the 500m a bit higher at 32-33 probably.
I could watch his technique and give him hints where to adjust and getting more out of the strokes and that helped tremendously. Same applies to skierg, his outputs skyrocketed after adjusting the technique.
Obviously, strength training helps, but stroke technique is way more important to get it right.
This 500m 1:55@r31 is after I was quite tired from training and other things.
I have rowed for 3 weeks seriously and 7-8 weeks very inconsistently. My current fitness is ~2:18-2:19 30r20 for context. The mentioned 5k and 2k times are before the 3 weeks of serious consistent training with BPP - i was doing training very inconsistently.
Actually my technique isn't great - a coach pointed out my recovery part was wasteful - that the hamstrings should be straight and the upper body recover first with arm straight before pulling in. He thinks my cardio is underestimated. If this is true - it MIGHT be possible
I am putting in whatever cardio I can, including steady state jog to lectures, steady state jog to the library, etc., because I know it will be hard to make it in 2 months in order to make the university team.
Re: Path to 1:59.x 20r20 in two months
Posted: November 24th, 2024, 6:36 am
by Sakly
PleaseLockIn wrote: ↑November 24th, 2024, 6:19 am
This 500m 1:55@r31 is after I was quite tired from training and other things.
Without proper baseline, nobody can gauge what to expect.
If your mentioned 30r20 is your current max effort (really nothing left at the end), then I don't see any chance for you to get to 2:00@r20 for 20min near time, as this would mean a power increase of 50% (based on 2:18 splits). I assume this will even not happen with much better technique and early noob gains.
That said, take it with a pinch of salt, as I don't know your technique at all, as well as how much the probably bad technique are up unnecessary fatigue during the 30min.
Re: Path to 1:59.x 20r20 in two months
Posted: November 24th, 2024, 8:03 am
by MPx
Not clear if you can pull a 200w stroke or not @ r20. Suggest you try. If you can't, then you need to get stronger. If you can pull a few but tire quickly then you need to get fitter. Most probably you'll need to do both. Strength comes quicker, fitness takes ages.
But I see that the real danger is compromising your stroke to try to hit this artificial target before you've given yourself time to hone your stroke to be as good as it can be. Putting together a few almighty heaves is really not going to improve very much at all. You're plenty young enough to develop very quickly but you will need to be a bit patient. Very best of luck with it all...
Re: Path to 1:59.x 20r20 in two months
Posted: November 24th, 2024, 9:18 am
by p_b82
I'm going to echo the above comments as well.
I spent about 6 months rowing at r20 last year to really push my efficiency, as I'd got into a bit of a bad habit with my work per stroke & rate, and one of my challenges was a sub 8min 2k at r20. aka 200w/10Wmin strokes.
Can you do that currently?
It is very very easy to ignore the power numbers behind the splits, above ~140W you have to start to significantly improve the power numbers to drop the splits proportionality because they are not a linear relationship.
I did a 5k free rate PB while I was doing my marathon prep - I'd dropped my work per stroke again, so did it at r28 as my cardio was good (for me) and I only managed 2:04 splits average. (180W); I didn't have a 200W 5k (20min) in me then, or now for that matter.
During that time I pulled the 1.37.7@r35 500m pb in my sig - 375W average & during playing around/intervals I saw a peak 1:31 pace ~ 465W@r40.
I'm only mentioning my figures so you can get an idea of the fact I am/was more than strong enough to generate significantly more power over 500m than is needed, but my cardio just cannot supply me with the juice over the longer distance.
I'd take the pace predictors with a pinch of salt until you've hit them with 100% max effort & 500m are no benchmark for the longer stuff which is more cardio and less strength - what they also do not tell you is the mental side doing 100% effort nor how it actually feels & how to pace it. (horrible... and even more horrible if you fly and die over a 5k)
If you want to know how close you are to your target I'd suggest you rest up properly and do a 5k TT open rate - that will give you an idea of what is currently in your tank power/pace wise, and what improvements you have to make & what is realistic in 2 months.
Your first challenge after that open rate TT would be to beat/match that time at r20 when properly rested up - because it will feel very different in the legs & lungs.
Re the nutrition side, I'd suggest you look up a bit more scientifically, there's lots of sport focused diet advice out there - and food/fuel after hard sessions is very different to what is needed after a gentle SS; but it needs to be balanced with your overall diet.
Re: Path to 1:59.x 20r20 in two months
Posted: November 25th, 2024, 9:56 am
by PleaseLockIn
p_b82 wrote: ↑November 24th, 2024, 9:18 am
I'm going to echo the above comments as well.
I spent about 6 months rowing at r20 last year to really push my efficiency, as I'd got into a bit of a bad habit with my work per stroke & rate, and one of my challenges was a sub 8min 2k at r20. aka 200w/10Wmin strokes.
Can you do that currently?
It is very very easy to ignore the power numbers behind the splits, above ~140W you have to start to significantly improve the power numbers to drop the splits proportionality because they are not a linear relationship.
I did a 5k free rate PB while I was doing my marathon prep - I'd dropped my work per stroke again, so did it at r28 as my cardio was good (for me) and I only managed 2:04 splits average. (180W); I didn't have a 200W 5k (20min) in me then, or now for that matter.
During that time I pulled the 1.37.7@r35 500m pb in my sig - 375W average & during playing around/intervals I saw a peak 1:31 pace ~ 465W@r40.
I'm only mentioning my figures so you can get an idea of the fact I am/was more than strong enough to generate significantly more power over 500m than is needed, but my cardio just cannot supply me with the juice over the longer distance.
I'd take the pace predictors with a pinch of salt until you've hit them with 100% max effort & 500m are no benchmark for the longer stuff which is more cardio and less strength - what they also do not tell you is the mental side doing 100% effort nor how it actually feels & how to pace it. (horrible... and even more horrible if you fly and die over a 5k)
If you want to know how close you are to your target I'd suggest you rest up properly and do a 5k TT open rate - that will give you an idea of what is currently in your tank power/pace wise, and what improvements you have to make & what is realistic in 2 months.
Your first challenge after that open rate TT would be to beat/match that time at r20 when properly rested up - because it will feel very different in the legs & lungs.
Re the nutrition side, I'd suggest you look up a bit more scientifically, there's lots of sport focused diet advice out there - and food/fuel after hard sessions is very different to what is needed after a gentle SS; but it needs to be balanced with your overall diet.
Week 4 Day 1 - it called for 6500m but I went over it with a lot in the tank. 6552m in 30:08 (2.17.9!) split at r20, and I was going faster at the end at 2:08 and still had some tank for it. I definitely could've pushed myself further but started with 2:20 split in the early 500m. Next time I will aim for 2:18 and see how comfortable I am.
After that I did chest flies, bench press, hamstring curls etc. even though I am genuinely very weak.
PS during the 6552m in 30:08 at r20, I tried some intense intervals at the end. I managed to get a 1:59 stroke at r20 after some strokes at 2:01-2:02 but after that fell to 2:01-2:02 for about 10 strokes. This was a steady state session, almost all UT2 with some UT3 (I could sing during some parts), except the faster sprinting at UT1 and that 1:59.6 at about UT1/AT.
I feel if i had tried MPx's suggestion fresh, I would've been able to make many 2:00 strokes at r20 at least.
I ate a protein bar after the workout, and then ate dinner. Decent! I'll see the nutrition advice and eat more protein.
Straightening the hamstrings then leaning back has improved my technique and times significantly. All I need is to make it more natural, and I do believe there will be more pace gains! Not enough for a 2:00 30r20 but I will be able to close the gap somewhat.
Week 4 Day 2 incoming!
At this point my intervals - not sure what to do with them? Try to lower the pace to 2:00, or lower the rate to 20 first? I will try keeping intervals at UT1 (can say some words).
I will also bulk a bit, do more optional sessions, cross train, then when the university team has selection for the 2nd semester I hope that adrenaline on test day will get me over.
Re: Path to 1:59.x 20r20 in two months
Posted: November 25th, 2024, 11:03 am
by p_b82
I think you're missing the point of the SS in the BPP if you're pushing the effort in them - the intervals are the sessions you push - the steadies you build on the work done in the intervals.
Not saying you can't do what you want, but there's a point to the plan, and big deviations reduce the value of the structure it provides - esp if you're doing the optional sessions as well.
I honestly think you'd get more value at knowing what pace you can do a 5k at with 100% commitment at this point - rather than theorising based on pace predictions from lower efforts & hypothetical "I can do loads when fresh"
Re: Path to 1:59.x 20r20 in two months
Posted: November 25th, 2024, 12:58 pm
by JaapvanE
p_b82 wrote: ↑November 25th, 2024, 11:03 am
I honestly think you'd get more value at knowing what pace you can do a 5k at with 100% commitment at this point - rather than theorising based on pace predictions from lower efforts & hypothetical "I can do loads when fresh"
As an (52 year) old man I can attest to this. On Saturdays I always row a relaxed half marathon in the afternoon with some friends, steady state HR Zone 2. Pace roughly around the mentioned 2:18/500m. Due to other training obligations, it is after a 1 hour strength training and 2 hours of intense Judo training (one of my training buddies is around 130kg, which I need to lift several times during that). So let's say I'm roughly as worn down as the OP is on that training. I can squeeze out a 2:00/500m for 500 meters at rate 22 at the end of that easily, if somebody annoys me sufficiently, and still feel I have something in the tank afterwards. And yeah, on Sundays I do another HM at a slightly better pace, still in Zone 2. In fact, with the additional 3 10K's and 2 5K's a week, one should think a 5K should be an easy distance for me.
Let's look at my results on the 5K. My PB on the 5K is 20:23.8, or a pace of 2:02.3/500m. This was after a very well structured and disciplined build-up for weeks towards it. At 5 minutes I already felt my energy reserve was depleted, I constantly had the feeling I would collapse any second, my knees hurt like hell and my negative split strategy required me to go even faster every 500 meters. I did not have any reserve left in the tank. There is a reason I don't do this too often.
My point is, one can extrapolate from small sections all you want, but nothing prepares you for having to maintain that pace for 20 minutes straight. That is the brutal reality of a long distance rowing session: initially it feels way to easy at the start, but reality has a tendency to kick your butt when you have to do it 500 to 2000 times. It is easy to pull a 2:00/500 for 500 meters after a long distance row, just to give that ego a kick (it isn't wise, but it feels so good). However, I have an extreme respect for people who are capable of rowing this pace for 5000 meters (or longer...) as it is painful and far from easy. 2:00/500m may look close to 2:18, but it is 1.5 times more work than the 2:18 you are pulling easily.
I sincerely hope you can reach this goal, but please listen to your coach and work on technique before you start thinking about specific goals.
Re: Path to 1:59.x 20r20 in two months
Posted: November 25th, 2024, 2:13 pm
by Dangerscouse
PleaseLockIn wrote: ↑November 25th, 2024, 9:56 am
At this point my intervals - not sure what to do with them? Try to lower the pace to 2:00, or lower the rate to 20 first? I will try keeping intervals at UT1 (can say some words).
The intervals are designed to test different energy systems, so don't fixate on r20 or 2:00 pace. You need to train around the target ie faster and slower so you start heading towards it from different angles.
What intervals are they? As an example, I chose circa 2k + 7 pace for my 5 x 1500 4r intervals, with an all out effort on the last interval. I'd agree with Peter and say, lower your UT2 pace and increase your interval pace.
Imo, the best thing you can do to improve on a 30r20, is to get comfortable with longer than the distance required, faster than the pace required and comfortable with r20 or even down to r18.
As well as weights, I'd recommend doing one legged wall sits. They're easy enough to do almost anywhere, and you can build up the time quite quickly. Getting accustomed to enduring the lactic burn is also a big benefit
Re: Path to 1:59.x 20r20 in two months
Posted: November 26th, 2024, 4:24 am
by iain
PleaseLockIn wrote: ↑November 25th, 2024, 9:56 am
6552m in 30:08 (2.17.9!) split at r20, and I was going faster at the end at 2:08 and still had some tank for it. I definitely could've pushed myself further but started with 2:20 split in the early 500m. Next time I will aim for 2:18 and see how comfortable I am.
PS during the 6552m in 30:08 at r20, I tried some intense intervals at the end. I managed to get a 1:59 stroke at r20 after some strokes at 2:01-2:02 but after that fell to 2:01-2:02 for about 10 strokes. This was a steady state session, almost all UT2 with some UT3 (I could sing during some parts), except the faster sprinting at UT1 and that 1:59.6 at about UT1/AT.
I feel if i had tried MPx's suggestion fresh, I would've been able to make many 2:00 strokes at r20 at least.
Can only reiterate much of the above. To row 2:00 splits R20 you need to pull 10WMin (600J/stroke). I struggle to maintain 8WMin, but for 20' R20 all out would expect to maintain ~8.4WMin (2:08 pace). But I do "strength sessions" of 10-12 stoke intervals where I regularly exceed 12WMin. I am weak and haven't weight trained for 35 years, so don't take this to mean you can never get there, but you are a long way short at the moment and rapid progress is only likely to come from improved technique.
The intervals in BPP are designed to be all out, so you should be above AT, although HR sometimes takes a while to come up so absent a good warm up (where you take your HR into AT before you start) it may be 3rd of shorter intervals before you see this. As such HR on sprints is misleading as to intensity. Also I am convinced that the central limiter stops at least my HR getting close to maximum on all out short efforts, typically being 8-10 beats lower on 1k or lower than at the end of 30 min ending in a sprint, although it might be me not pushing as hard without the accumulated endorphins! My reason for suspecting Central Limiter is that HR frequently only starts to rising again after I stop rowing!
I agree that BPP is not designed for SS rows to be done "hard". Although as a halfway house, you might like to row them at R18 with a stronger stroke. 10WMin is about 2:05 pace at R18, although I would say start closer to the 2:18 you have been doing (7.4WMin).
Re: Path to 1:59.x 20r20 in two months
Posted: November 27th, 2024, 7:38 am
by PleaseLockIn
iain wrote: ↑November 26th, 2024, 4:24 am
PleaseLockIn wrote: ↑November 25th, 2024, 9:56 am
6552m in 30:08 (2.17.9!) split at r20, and I was going faster at the end at 2:08 and still had some tank for it. I definitely could've pushed myself further but started with 2:20 split in the early 500m. Next time I will aim for 2:18 and see how comfortable I am.
PS during the 6552m in 30:08 at r20, I tried some intense intervals at the end. I managed to get a 1:59 stroke at r20 after some strokes at 2:01-2:02 but after that fell to 2:01-2:02 for about 10 strokes. This was a steady state session, almost all UT2 with some UT3 (I could sing during some parts), except the faster sprinting at UT1 and that 1:59.6 at about UT1/AT.
I feel if i had tried MPx's suggestion fresh, I would've been able to make many 2:00 strokes at r20 at least.
Can only reiterate much of the above. To row 2:00 splits R20 you need to pull 10WMin (600J/stroke). I struggle to maintain 8WMin, but for 20' R20 all out would expect to maintain ~8.4WMin (2:08 pace). But I do "strength sessions" of 10-12 stoke intervals where I regularly exceed 12WMin. I am weak and haven't weight trained for 35 years, so don't take this to mean you can never get there, but you are a long way short at the moment and rapid progress is only likely to come from improved technique.
The intervals in BPP are designed to be all out, so you should be above AT, although HR sometimes takes a while to come up so absent a good warm up (where you take your HR into AT before you start) it may be 3rd of shorter intervals before you see this. As such HR on sprints is misleading as to intensity. Also I am convinced that the central limiter stops at least my HR getting close to maximum on all out short efforts, typically being 8-10 beats lower on 1k or lower than at the end of 30 min ending in a sprint, although it might be me not pushing as hard without the accumulated endorphins! My reason for suspecting Central Limiter is that HR frequently only starts to rising again after I stop rowing!
I agree that BPP is not designed for SS rows to be done "hard". Although as a halfway house, you might like to row them at R18 with a stronger stroke. 10WMin is about 2:05 pace at R18, although I would say start closer to the 2:18 you have been doing (7.4WMin).
Week 4 Day 3 - [6500m]
In reality - 6550m in 30:09 (so 2:18.0 split, barely) at r17 overall. I started ~2:18.x at r19-20 but found that upper UT3 so decreased the pace to 2:17.6 split from 25:00-30:00, and managed r17. The remaining bit was at r13, somehow. (Concept 2)
This is pulling 7.8Wmin. My pacing is surprisingly consistent for each 5 minute, with a slight negative split. However, I had strokes from 2:09 to 2:27, with most strokes at 2:14-2:22. This is not very consistent. I accidentally almost locked my knees at the end which made my recovery janky. Next time I should keep my legs straight but not locked so I can recover seamlessly and cut out precious seconds. Also, I gripped the handle too hard.
The row was at UT2 mostly - I could say 2 sentences in a row even during the end. Some UT3. This is not "Hard" rowing. I even managed to row this with very soft music.
However, I still need to increase my stroke power by 30% in order to make it. It's a large gap... but I will fight for it.
Re: Path to 1:59.x 20r20 in two months
Posted: November 27th, 2024, 9:24 am
by iain
That's a good start. Don't worry about the R13, that means that it recorded only 2 strokes in the 8+ seconds as there is 6S or so after stopping before it stops. Please note that PM averages this with equal weight to full 5' so please be sceptical of the overall SpM!
Lower pace on particular strokes can be:
1) genuinely higher force strokes, these might not be sustainable or an indication of latent capacity.
2) due to a faster stroke so misleading as don't reflect increased work in that stroke (just less slowing before it)
3) better technique - these need to be looked for as you can reproduce these and later less powerful strokes on relapses need to be rectified
4) artificially increased pace through sloppy technique such as snatching or excessive leanback - not sustainable so should be discounted.
By paying attention to individual strokes you should try and make them more consistent and done with the most effective technique that can be maintained. If your objective is just getting the seat, you might consider a slightly inefficient stroke (eg leanback to 10:30), this won't be reproducible at higher rating so is a false improvement, but it might get you in. Against this, if you are CV challenged at R20 this won't help and the coach may count technique errors against you despite making the qualifying pace (especially if close).