Concept2 Forum

I'm new to rowing. I just bought a new PM5 rower. I'm not sure if mine is working right.
I have never been on a rower before. Forgive the incorrect terminology.

I'm getting my stroke down. When I move forward to the catch I lean and stretch out my arms a little extra to get the chain to retract into the machine, so I can get a little extra pull on the drive part of my stroke. What happens when I pull on the drive part of my stroke the chain comes back out and the first 4 to 6 inches there is no resistance. It is not until I get past those 4 inches that the resistance kicks in.

Is my machine working correctly?

Take a look at this video
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4zWu1yu ... oncept2usa

What you're suffering from is a lack of technique. Rowing is a LEGS sport, it is not hauling anchor with you arms and upper body.
Get the damper lever moved down, start at 5. Then get your PM5 to check the drag factor (which should be around 120 as a starting level).

2ball wrote: ↑

October 8th, 2024, 11:04 pm

What happens when I pull on the drive part of my stroke the chain comes back out and the first 4 to 6 inches there is no resistance. It is not until I get past those 4 inches that the resistance kicks in.

Is my machine working correctly?

That is a "missed catch". Your handle speed must match the flywheel speed to catch it. Otherwise, when the flywheel is too fast, you are moving but you miss the liad of the flywheel. It is a bit like cycling downhill in first gear: your wheels are moving too fast to catch them.

Sliw your recovery down.

JaapvanE wrote: ↑

October 9th, 2024, 11:25 am

2ball wrote: ↑

October 8th, 2024, 11:04 pm

What happens when I pull on the drive part of my stroke the chain comes back out and the first 4 to 6 inches there is no resistance. It is not until I get past those 4 inches that the resistance kicks in.

Is my machine working correctly?

That is a "missed catch". Your handle speed must match the flywheel speed to catch it. Otherwise, when the flywheel is too fast, you are moving but you miss the liad of the flywheel. It is a bit like cycling downhill in first gear: your wheels are moving too fast to catch them.

Sliw your recovery down.

ok thank you, all these responses seem exactly right.
so it seems there is no need to go past the top power portion of my stroke, because I am not catching the catch until the power portion anyway and its just wasted movement.

Hello 2ball and all

You have some very good answers here.

Assuming the machine is okay, there is also the possibility that you are pulling the chain upwards too much. Try imagining a cogwheel with a chain. If you pull the chain up and away from it, the chain and the cogs are disconnected until you lower the chain a bit.
This is possibly an explanation but not the most likely one.

2ball wrote: ↑

October 9th, 2024, 2:14 pm

so it seems there is no need to go past the top power portion of my stroke, because I am not catching the catch until the power portion anyway and its just wasted movement.

At the catch

1) Don't lean your torso over too far. (about 11 o'clock on a clock face)

2) Your shins should be approximately vertical.

Going past the two positions above puts you in a weaker position at the time when you need to prepare to generate the most force at the handle.

It's OK to lift your heels a bit at the catch, but the quicker you get them down the better.

Good luck

I would put some lubrication in the one way clutch bearing in the flywheel. If it gets old grease in it then it can be slow to engage.

Once you rule this out but still have the same problem, its just leg speed at the start of the drive.

It is not until I get past those 4 inches that the resistance kicks in. Is my machine working correctly?

Yes. Your machine has a flywheel. At the first stroke, the flywheel is not moving, so we feel very little slack when we pull the handle.

After the first stroke, at every catch the flywheel is still spinning, so we accelerate our entire mass to reach flywheel speed, in order to engage the chain asap and then pull hard. This is the slack we feel.

A four inch slack is normal and would suggest your technique is correct, using your legs first at the catch.

It all makes for a combination of high speed and high force: rowing is a power sport. Our machines measure the Power we deliver, which is why they are called ergometers.

jamesg wrote: ↑

October 10th, 2024, 2:12 am

A four inch slack is normal and would suggest your technique is correct, using your legs first at the catch.

I typically row at 20-24 spm, and as best I can tell when I use the erg there's no perceptible slack at all - I can feel the load immediately ramping up with very little motion of the handle.

Ombrax wrote: ↑

October 10th, 2024, 5:31 am

jamesg wrote: ↑

October 10th, 2024, 2:12 am

A four inch slack is normal and would suggest your technique is correct, using your legs first at the catch.

I typically row at 20-24 spm, and as best I can tell when I use the erg there's no perceptible slack at all - I can feel the load immediately ramping up with very little motion of the handle.

Same for me at any rate from 17 to >30. I would never describe a slack of 4 inches/10cm as normal.

Sakly wrote: ↑

October 10th, 2024, 7:47 am

Ombrax wrote: ↑

October 10th, 2024, 5:31 am

jamesg wrote: ↑

October 10th, 2024, 2:12 am

A four inch slack is normal and would suggest your technique is correct, using your legs first at the catch.

I typically row at 20-24 spm, and as best I can tell when I use the erg there's no perceptible slack at all - I can feel the load immediately ramping up with very little motion of the handle.

Same for me at any rate from 17 to >30. I would never describe a slack of 4 inches/10cm as normal.

it looks like it was just bad technique for me. When I leaned in to get more chain into the machine I was stuck pulling back out with by back before I could get back into a good position to drive with my legs. That's why 4 inches or movement with no real resistance was happening. I think I fixed that.

2ball wrote: ↑

October 10th, 2024, 12:54 pm

Sakly wrote: ↑

October 10th, 2024, 7:47 am

Ombrax wrote: ↑

October 10th, 2024, 5:31 am

I typically row at 20-24 spm, and as best I can tell when I use the erg there's no perceptible slack at all - I can feel the load immediately ramping up with very little motion of the handle.

Same for me at any rate from 17 to >30. I would never describe a slack of 4 inches/10cm as normal.

it looks like it was just bad technique for me. When I leaned in to get more chain into the machine I was stuck pulling back out with by back before I could get back into a good position to drive with my legs. That's why 4 inches or movement with no real resistance was happening. I think I fixed that.

Very good if you could fix your technique, at least for this part!
Happy erging and good progress

If we move our entire body mass at the catch, using legs only, Newton's V²=2as applies:

If V=1.5m/s (low drag) and a = g = 10m/s² (low stretcher force), then
s = (1.5)²/20 = 2.25/20 = 0.11m, 4 inches.

If V = 1m/s (high drag) and a = 2g = 20 (high force), then
s = 1²/20 = 0.05m, 2 inches.

So to some extent it's our choice. Sad to say, my choice is the first, low drag, low force.

jamesg wrote: ↑

October 11th, 2024, 1:12 am

If we move our entire body mass at the catch, using legs only, Newton's V²=2as applies:

If V=1.5m/s (low drag) and a = g = 10m/s² (low stretcher force), then
s = (1.5)²/20 = 2.25/20 = 0.11m, 4 inches.

If V = 1m/s (high drag) and a = 2g = 20 (high force), then
s = 1²/20 = 0.05m, 2 inches.

So to some extent it's our choice. Sad to say, my choice is the first, low drag, low force.

Am I missing something here? The equation is for uniform acceleration, this could be any figure. gravity only relevant if you are in freefall! Or are you assuming that your legs can only accelerate you with the force that they would need to stand up. i would hope we can all manage a bit more than that!

2g is 2x9.81m/s², or 20m/s², which requires a force of twice our weight. A force equal to our mass produces an acceleration called g, almost 10m/s², as in free fall.

In any case, at 1m/s a slack of 10cm, while easily seen, takes only 0.1 seconds, so in terms of perception is non-existent.

Newton's eqations refer to constant mass and force, so are approximations.