Concept2 Forum

I've seen several threads about drag factor, but nothing mentioning the Dark Horse Drag Factor Workout.

They suggest doing the following, and seeing which results in the best amount of work (wattage, distance) as well as which feels the best.
Curious if anyone's done this. Was it worthwhile? Did it help you find a better drag factor than you were previously using?

Andy

AndyH wrote: ↑

September 25th, 2024, 5:03 pm

Code: Select all

Minutes	Rate	Damper Setting
6	16		10
5	20		8
4	24		6
3	28		4
2	32		2
1	Open		Open

Curious if anyone's done this. Was it worthwhile? Did it help you find a better drag factor than you were previously using?

Andy

Dark Horse rowing content is usually excellent. But if someone, especially a new rower, tries 16 SPM on damper 10 on a new (or freshly cleaned) erg they are going to be hurting. Very high torque at slow recovery speed so the flywheel is going to be starting at low low rpms each stroke. ouch.

If you want to try out different DF's suggest you use DF rather than damper setting, and only explore DF in the range of 80 to 140 until you've rowed enough to be sure you want to go outside this range.

All drag does is control the speed of our pull. So if we want the pull to take any given time, at our preferred pull force/length, we can adjust it. I find 0.6s and 90 df suits me quite well, at 320N and 1.2m and all ratings.

1.2x320x22/60=140W which is enough to drive my HR well over doc's suggested 120 max.

I'm not convinced that this is a good idea, but it must work for some people.

In addition to what Tsnor mentions, I've always found that you need time to adjust to drag factor as a significantly heavier or lighter stroke than usual will feel really strange to start with, and you'll instinctively not like it, unless you do it for a few sessions.

Tbh, there are so few people that suit a damper setting of 10 (assumed to be on a clean erg) that it doesn't make much sense to suggest it. Surely eight would be more than enough

Tsnor wrote: ↑

September 25th, 2024, 9:06 pm

AndyH wrote: ↑

September 25th, 2024, 5:03 pm

Code: Select all

Minutes	Rate	Damper Setting
6	16		10
5	20		8
4	24		6
3	28		4
2	32		2
1	Open		Open

Curious if anyone's done this. Was it worthwhile? Did it help you find a better drag factor than you were previously using?

Andy

Dark Horse rowing content is usually excellent. But if someone, especially a new rower, tries 16 SPM on damper 10 on a new (or freshly cleaned) erg they are going to be hurting. Very high torque at slow recovery speed so the flywheel is going to be starting at low low rpms each stroke. ouch.

If you want to try out different DF's suggest you use DF rather than damper setting, and only explore DF in the range of 80 to 140 until you've rowed enough to be sure you want to go outside this range.

Thanks - 100% agree re 10 damper setting. How would you propose re-writing that workout to help find my ideal DF?

Appreciate the input.

Andy

jamesg wrote: ↑

September 26th, 2024, 1:53 am

All drag does is control the speed of our pull. So if we want the pull to take any given time, at our preferred pull force/length, we can adjust it. I find 0.6s and 90 df suits me quite well, at 320N and 1.2m and all ratings.

1.2x320x22/60=140W which is enough to drive my HR well over doc's suggested 120 max.

Interesting way of looking at it. Can you explain a bit more to a new rower? How would I go about using this to figure out what's best for me?

Thanks

Andy

Dangerscouse wrote: ↑

September 26th, 2024, 2:54 am

I'm not convinced that this is a good idea, but it must work for some people.

In addition to what Tsnor mentions, I've always found that you need time to adjust to drag factor as a significantly heavier or lighter stroke than usual will feel really strange to start with, and you'll instinctively not like it, unless you do it for a few sessions.

Tbh, there are so few people that suit a damper setting of 10 (assumed to be on a clean erg) that it doesn't make much sense to suggest it. Surely eight would be more than enough

100% agree re damper setting of 10. Question is whether folks have used this and if it's helped find the best personal drag factor. Thoughts?

Dangerscouse wrote: ↑

September 26th, 2024, 2:54 am

In addition to what Tsnor mentions, I've always found that you need time to adjust to drag factor as a significantly heavier or lighter stroke than usual will feel really strange to start with, and you'll instinctively not like it, unless you do it for a few sessions.

I share this thought. Getting the hang of a certain DF is pretty tough, usually takes me two to three sessions.

But DF225 for three sessions hurts my elbows. Might be a certain lack of technique, but not my favourite.

Dangerscouse wrote: ↑

September 26th, 2024, 2:54 am

Tbh, there are so few people that suit a damper setting of 10 (assumed to be on a clean erg) that it doesn't make much sense to suggest it. Surely eight would be more than enough

Even 8 is tough. Sprinters might like it although I saw a Mark Lewis video where he was trained by the WR holder on a short distance, which used DF160. The guy was build as a tank, so it wasn't that he missed muscle power to row at much higher DF.

AndyH wrote: ↑

September 26th, 2024, 9:38 am

jamesg wrote: ↑

September 26th, 2024, 1:53 am

All drag does is control the speed of our pull. So if we want the pull to take any given time, at our preferred pull force/length, we can adjust it. I find 0.6s and 90 df suits me quite well, at 320N and 1.2m and all ratings.

1.2x320x22/60=140W which is enough to drive my HR well over doc's suggested 120 max.

Interesting way of looking at it. Can you explain a bit more to a new rower? How would I go about using this to figure out what's best for me?

I'll explain how I look at it, and James will correct me if I make a mistake.

An interesting way of looking at drag is that it is the rate of deceleration of the flywheel during the recovery (this is actually its technical definition). So higher dragfactor implies a faster decelerating flywheel. If you wouldn't change anything else in your stroke, it will feel heavier because of that. As a rower, you can compensate for this by making your recovery faster.

Sprinters use this as they want a slow flywheel to get a good catch, but also want a high strokerate (and thus increase the DF).

I don't think there is a simple excercise that will result in your optimal DF. Humans are no robots, so you need to get accustomed to a certain DF and how it feels. So do a couple of sessions at a low drag and see how it feels. If you feel too light at the catch, increase the drag. If it feels too heavy, decrease it. Try to keep the strokerate at something you like to use, so sufficiently low to have a decent breathing rythm.

JaapvanE wrote: ↑

September 26th, 2024, 10:32 am

I don't think there is a simple excercise that will result in your optimal DF. Humans are no robots, so you need to get accustomed to a certain DF and how it feels. So do a couple of sessions at a low drag and see how it feels. If you feel too light at the catch, increase the drag. If it feels too heavy, decrease it. Try to keep the strokerate at something you like to use, so sufficiently low to have a decent breathing rythm.

Great way of thinking about it. Thanks!

I don't know the workout, but now being 2 1/2 years on the rower, I adjust the DF frequently based on my muscular fatigue of the day. If I feel strong and recovered, I like higher DF like ~120. Feeling a bit of fatigue from gym the other day, I also like to set DF to ~100. Both values are fine for me on longer, low rate rows, like an hour or HM. For shorter stuff on higher rates, like 2k or 3x6min I did yesterday, I set DF to 130-140. Sprint stuff even higher, otherwise I cannot get the splits down, as I am a relatively slow athlete.

AndyH wrote: ↑

September 26th, 2024, 9:41 am

100% agree re damper setting of 10. Question is whether folks have used this and if it's helped find the best personal drag factor. Thoughts?

Ime, it's trial and error, but it's probably not quite as important as you might think. All you want is to find the right df to make you more efficient, which probably is somewhere around 115-130, but it might be higher or lower.

I'd keep using a specific df for a few sessions as you'll fairly quickly get to know if it feels right or not, so you can maintain, increase or decrease it, or you might want to do like Sascha suggests and change it for different efforts.

I'm with Stu in that I dont think that you could find a "best for you" DF in a single work out. It takes a while to adjust, so I'd have to give it at least 3 lengthy sessions - including steady and intervals at each level I wanted to try. As a novice numpty nearly 30 years ago, I did fine on damper10 on my new machine (didn't even know about DF to check what it was in those days) - but then I got better when I was older by using a lower DF. As I got more experienced and knowledgeable I've tried lots of different stuff incl many different DFs. I still prefer a higher DF than most (typically 140-145) but only use very high numbers for one off shorter than 500m sprints. I'd suggest sticking somewhere in the "standard advice" range of 110 to 130 until you are completely happy with your form...then experiment a bit.

AndyH wrote: ↑

September 26th, 2024, 9:35 am

Thanks - 100% agree re 10 damper setting. How would you propose re-writing that workout to help find my ideal DF?

Appreciate the input.

Andy

How long have your been erging ("long time" "new to 6 months")
How comfortable are you with your rowing form ("very", "i'm good I think", "not very")
Do you use a heart rate monitor ("yes, strap", "yes watch", "no")

Agree with Dangerscouse that whatever DF you normally use feels right. Other advice above also feels right (including that some people run fixed DF and some like to change DF often) Note I've been coached a lot, but I am not a coach. If you are new or not comfortable with your form then please focus on form and row for 6+ months at 115 or less DF before doing anything else. When ready maybe try an experiment like this...

Can you do a long-ish piece at light/medium load where your body hits steady state? Say 30 mins at a split where you are not panting ? Use that split. If you have a HR monitor use that in addition to your subjective feel. Subjective feel is important. HR will be a good cross check, as will alternating the DFs.

In one workout, consecutively:
5 mins at 100 DF, pull to hit the 30 minute split described above, record how you feel
5 mins at 140 DF, same split, record how you feel.
5 mins at 100 DF, same split, record how you feel.
5 mins at 140 DF, same split, record how you feel.
5 mins at 100 DF, same split, record how you feel.
5 mins at 140 DF, same split, record how you feel.

Since you'll be using the display DF function and moving the damper between each 5 minute piece, use single-time or just-row for the 5 min workout.

You may find you like 100 and 140 equally. If so suggest you set at 110-115.
You'll may like either 100 or 140 better. Then do the same thing between "100 and 120" or "140 and 120"
That should get you very close to your preferred DF. Based on everything I've read there is no efficiency change between any of these DF settings, so this is all about comfort and injury avoidance.

Sakly wrote: ↑

September 26th, 2024, 11:49 am

I don't know the workout, but now being 2 1/2 years on the rower, I adjust the DF frequently based on my muscular fatigue of the day. If I feel strong and recovered, I like higher DF like ~120. Feeling a bit of fatigue from gym the other day, I also like to set DF to ~100. Both values are fine for me on longer, low rate rows, like an hour or HM. For shorter stuff on higher rates, like 2k or 3x6min I did yesterday, I set DF to 130-140. Sprint stuff even higher, otherwise I cannot get the splits down, as I am a relatively slow athlete.

Thanks - you use 140+ for 500 - 1000 intervals?