Reducing my Stroke

[Mlevison]

In my last post, viewtopic.php?f=3&t=208610 - I realized I want to drop my stroke rate for longer distances. So here I am at the start of Pete's Plan Rd II. Today I aimed for 20s/m. (In fact I hit 19).

When I drop my stroke rate to 20/m. I have two challenges:
- How do you keep a steady pace? I sometimes rabbit back up to 24
- How do you maintain power? For the first ~1000km, I can push with all the power in my legs. Around 1km I can't maintain that much power, I can't get enough air in to work that hard

What am I missing?

[Ombrax]

Did you try tweaking (presumably increasing) the Drag Factor?

At lower stroke rates it may help to have a somewhat higher DF.

[Sakly]

It takes time.
I started rowing with a drag of 135 and did my steadies around r20 from the start, getting to around ~2:07-2:10 or so.
Now I like to reduce drag to 100-110 for long steady stuff, naturally log in at r18 and get paces around 1:59-2:02 based on the feeling of the day. Now the distances I use for steady rows are longer as well.

[contdrift86]

Going to echo what Sakly said, it's just an adaptation to the thing and will take time. When I first really started doing low rate stuff it was 17-19SPM at 130-134 watts (2:18ish) with a DF of 115. After I was doing those sessions with a HR of about 130-135 on any given day I upped the drag factor to 125 and the HR spiked a little but within a couple of weeks the adaptation had happened. Then I slowly upped the watts and started doing my SS at 145-150 watts (2:13-2:10) pace. The block before this one my watts were up at 165-170 (2:08-2:05) with DF anywhere between 120-125.

It's like any exercise program, or basically any skill we learn. It will take time for the body to adjust to it but once it does the gains will be there, but it might just be slow.

[jamesg]

- How do you maintain power?

By doing just that, which is what low-rate work is for: training.

In aerobic work, keep the rate low, technique perfect and force manageable (seen in ergdata).

[Dangerscouse]

When I drop my stroke rate to 20/m. I have two challenges:
- How do you keep a steady pace? I sometimes rabbit back up to 24
- How do you maintain power? For the first ~1000km, I can push with all the power in my legs. Around 1km I can't maintain that much power, I can't get enough air in to work that hard

What am I missing?

We all have natural comfort zones for stroke rates, which may be higher or lower. As a general rule, higher is for more aerobic based and lower is for strength based.

The issue you'll have is that you'll be naturally dragged back to your comfort zone: when it feels harder you'll increase the stroke rate & ease off the power per stroke. As everyone has said, this takes time to adapt and accept as something that is beneficial as subconscious instincts are hard to rewire.

My natural comfort zone is r28-30, so rather than dropping it down to r20 and expecting a too fast pace straight away, I lowered the stroke rate every couple of weeks. Getting used to r26 from r28 is far more acceptable than trying to accept r20.

If you do want to row at r20, accept that your pace will be slower at least until you get used to the increased effort, as there is no chance that you will maintain the same pace if you're used to rowing at r24+. I'd easily expect to lose 5-6 seconds average pace and maybe more.

The ability to maintain a specific stroke rate will get easier with practice, and you can use the stroke counter on Ergzone or Ergdata if you use either of those apps?

Finally the other issue you'll be contending with is breathing sequences, which are different for, say, r28 than it is for r20. This can easily lead to subtle panic as you're not used to it and your inner chimp will ultimately take over your decision making

[p_b82]

When I did my reduced rate work/challenge I found exactly the same as you.

The recovery felt like it was just crawling back up the slide, but you will get used to it with more practice. I found just dropping the rate first without trying to up the power made it easier to get the feel for the changes, then worked on adding power.

It was also bloody hard work for me to start with though when I did add the power, as I had challenged myself to a sub 8 2K (which was a pb target at the time) - so 200w@r20.

The flip side of that though, is that I've dropped my rate from ~26-28spm for steady stuff down to ~23-25spm; which is saving me energy by going up and down the slide fewer times for the same distance and thus is more efficient.

It did also highlight form deficiencies, as I was trying to pull way too hard to make up the extra power and it forced me to really focus on my leg drive.

I'm most comfortable breathing once per stroke, and it's not until I'm most definitely in the stressed areas that I switch to 2 per stroke (basically panting); but as Stu says, if you're used to breathing more frequently, and you still only breath once per stroke, it will leave you with a net oxygen debt as your breathing rate has reduced but your effort per stroke has increased.

[JaapvanE]

My natural comfort zone is r28-30, so rather than dropping it down to r20 and expecting a too fast pace straight away, I lowered the stroke rate every couple of weeks. Getting used to r26 from r28 is far more acceptable than trying to accept r20.

R28-30 used to be my natural stroke rate as well. Since then I learned to rake it easier in the recovery, allowing me to drop to R18-20, while maintaining the same pace (roughly 2:05/500m). It took me some months to get used to that. And when not paying attention I drift to R22-24. And admitted, when racing I'll be back at R28, but then pace is much faster as my strokes have become more effective.

[JaapvanE]

I'm most comfortable breathing once per stroke, and it's not until I'm most definitely in the stressed areas that I switch to 2 per stroke (basically panting); but as Stu says, if you're used to breathing more frequently, and you still only breath once per stroke, it will leave you with a net oxygen debt as your breathing rate has reduced but your effort per stroke has increased.

For me, switching from 1 breath/stroke to 1.5 or 2 is a clear sign I left HR Zone 2. Keeping SPM low makes it easier, as you can pick some rest and air in the recovery. Moving to higher SPM and then have to switch to 2 breaths/stroke is tough. I usually can't get above 50 breaths/min, creating synchronisation/rythem issues at 28SPM.

[iain]

In my last post, viewtopic.php?f=3&t=208610 - I realized I want to drop my stroke rate for longer distances. So here I am at the start of Pete's Plan Rd II. Today I aimed for 20s/m. (In fact I hit 19).

When I drop my stroke rate to 20/m. I have two challenges:
- How do you keep a steady pace? I sometimes rabbit back up to 24
- How do you maintain power? For the first ~1000km, I can push with all the power in my legs. Around 1km I can't maintain that much power, I can't get enough air in to work that hard

What am I missing?

I assume that you are talking about the SS rows. Pete actually recommends slightly higher and doing SS at UT1 NOT zone 2, but part of this is to keep the sessions shorter with a suggested 10k SS (although plan allows 8 - 15k). As others have said, lower rating will naturally be a slower pace. that said, Pete was fine with me doing SS at R18-9 especially as I was towards the top of his suggested distances. To stay below threshold at R20 I need to appreciably weaken my stroke that is not a great idea as my many technique faults tend to get worse. That said, some of us keep a fairly consistent stroke (when measured as the work = Watts divided by the rating), while others reduce the work per stroke on longer distances, so there is no definitive answer. If you can't maintain a pace at R20 for >1k (assuming you have the basic fitness to row the PP), then you are rowing too fast and should reduce the power. In an all out 30'R20 I actually switch up to 3 breaths per stroke! SS should allow you to recover for the next day so that you can do the hard sessions truly hard, if these are compromised you are not getting the benefits of the plan.

If you are slowing to R20 for intervals, then that is not the intention, these are to prepare you for TTs and the short intervals are at (or for 500s) above race ratings. No-one races 2ks at R20 and the plan is to prepare you for 2ks. Personally when starting out on PP I start with sub-race ratings if I don't have the base fitness. But I don't artificially reduce them, just do what I am comfortable I can maintain and increase it significantly in the final intervals. As the targets get faster the rate needs to increase to achieve the new targets.

Just realised that there has been some confusion over the PP. This is the 3 week rotation version. If you are talking about the BPP (the 24 week increasing plan) then similar ideas hold, but not all intervals have a fast last and the SS sessions start shorter.

[Mlevison]

Replying from my iPad at the end of running workshops. I’m brain dead and probably won’t respond to all comments tonight.

I want to say, just how much I appreciate the support of the community here. This is a great place to ask questions. Feels much like the Agile/Scrum community did 25 yrs ago. I would come and ask, questions (often ill formed) and people would jump to respond.

@Ombrax, @Sakly, @contdrift86 It would never occur to me to increase my drag factor. Doh. Of course that is a clever idea. I just assumed from something I read that most rowing was done in 115-120 range. Mine is set to 118. I guess I will soon see 125-130. Only question: is the idea that i train at ever higher DF, dropping back down only for sessions I want to rank for?

@Jamesg Thanks it is reassuring to read that I’m a track.

@Dangercourse I’ve accepted the lower pace, it wouldn’t surprise me if I’m 4-5 seconds slower. Next time I row, I will try to find the stroke counter in ErgData.

@p_b82 funny when I did my test 2k earlier in the week, i was a hair over 8mins for 2km. In a few months, I want to do 7:45. Your comments give me confidence that I am on the right track.

@JaapvanE More reassurance that I maybe a normal human

@Iain I’m talking about the 24wk PP now apparently BPP. I didn’t know there was a difference, My goal is to climb the ladder again focusing on increased power and efficiency. Last night I was doing the first 5K of a BPP, I think this is what you call the SS (Steady state) distance. My logic was to reduce my stroke rate and increase power so I’m efficient especially over the 10km distance. My mad cap goal is to own the world record for 2K and 10K when I’m 90 - in 34yrs time.

[p_b82]

I normally don't change the DF - I leave it where it is, and I get some slight variations due to external weather conditions, and how wide I open the windows, when I last hoovered.... It's mostly in the 118-122 range for me though.
I did make a made a minor adjustment for the FM - that one I did back off a touch lower just to make the catch a little easier. All of 116...

I spent 6 months resetting my stroke and getting used to the lower rate, ticking off each pb at r20 "because" - I started at 2k for no particular reason; then after the HM, I switched to FM prep and ditched the rate capped work.

And while the r20 work was good for me to re-assess my technique, the biggest driver on my improvement was the sheer volume I did in prep for the HM.
My r20 pb 10,000m on 23/09/23 was 44:37.3; yesterday I finished it in 42:13.1 @r25.

Breaking the numbers down the r20 was done with a 7.3Wmin rating; the r25 only 6.88Wmin.

There was only a couple of bpm difference in my Hr average between the two pieces but 26W difference overall output. I'm sure if I were to repeat the r20 piece it would be a higher pace, but it it would not be faster than the one I just set at r25 with less work per stroke.

I guess the TLDR version of the above is - it's good to assess form, but don't focus on low rates too much if you find it's just not bringing you benefits; some folks just naturally rate higher/lower than others.

[Sakly]

@Ombrax, @Sakly, @contdrift86 It would never occur to me to increase my drag factor. Doh. Of course that is a clever idea. I just assumed from something I read that most rowing was done in 115-120 range. Mine is set to 118. I guess I will soon see 125-130. Only question: is the idea that i train at ever higher DF, dropping back down only for sessions I want to rank for?

Drag factor is a very subjective setting and should be set to any setup, which makes you the most efficient. For different rates/paces that could be different settings, but also the same setting.
For me personally, I'm getting much better results at a higher drag for short distances, as I am slow, but strong, so it helps me to use a high drag. On a drag of 100-110 I can barely get below 1:40 splits, as I'm too slow, but using a drag of 150, I can get down to 1:30 "easily" (same rate of course).
On slower paces it has not so much influence, as I'm working much below my reachable pace threshold, so I drop the drag to get used to a faster pull. Recently used a drag of ~100 for some 60min or HM steady sessions.
If I want to go for a TT, I typically set the drag to higher values for short stuff and lower the value as the distance gets longer, but not below ~120-130. But that's me.

[iain]

Many people do their steady state rows (ie the "recovery" rows designed to add distance and therefore build a base by encouraging increased production of mitochondria in muscles and capilliarisation) at a reduced rating. These are not done at an all out work per stroke, but at a strong stroke that we would use at a higher rating for a time trial. If you adopt the opposite approach of a high rating at lower work per stroke, then this can hide many issues with the stroke and we don't want to train in errors. This is a very different approach to a 30'R20 or other rate restricted time trial. In these we increase the work per stroke to as high as we can maintain for the distance rowed. Eddie Fletcher (respected coach) believes that it takes a full day off to recover from a full on 30'R20, so this is no use to recover between hard sessions. Just in case you are unfamiliar with the concept of "work per stroke" (sometimes confusingly called Stroke Power Index or SPI), this is the power divided by the rating. Dividing Watts by Strokes per min gives the unusual units WMin. This can be used in reverse to compare different rates. If the Work per stroke of one piece is multiplied by the rating for another, it will give you the watts you would generate at the same work per stroke at the second rating. This can be converted to a pace via https://www.freespiritsrowing.com/forum ... -converter .

Re drag factor, increasing this will increase the duration of the power stroke that will reduce the rating. However reducing the power stroke from say 0.6S to 0.7S (a large increase) while keeping the recovery the same, would only increase the stroke at 24SpM (2.5S) to 2.6S or 23SpM. So while it might fine tune a stroke, it is not very effective in changing stroke rate, this needs to be by slowing the slide on the recovery.

[MPx]

The way I'm reading the OP posts, I'm still thinking there's a disconnect with what people are responding and the OPs perception of pace. I know some disagree (and prefer to go harder), but many would say that they would do their SS work at 20 to 25s slower pace than their 2k TT. This would be at least 10 and maybe 15s slower than a 5k TT pace. So I suspect what we are all talking about as Steady State work at whatever rate/DF is a much slower pace then the OP is trying or expecting to achieve. HTH.