Concept2 Forum

Does anyone do any lactate Threshold training using the Skierg/Rowerg?

I use a heart rate monitor during my workouts and push myself pretty hard. However I'm wondering if anyone is getting more scientific about it? For example, I've seen the cycling community get pretty into training for lactate thresholds.

I have never done it, but I'm contemplating buying a lactate monitor, as it's not much more expensive than renting one for two weeks. It does interest me, as it might be totally irrelevant but I rarely suffer from lactic burn, so I wonder if my threshold is higher than I assume.

I know that Rocky (Nick Rockliff) has done it previously and is a big fan of it.

National teams do. Some individuals do. I haven't, but have thought about it.

LT training is big in running and cycling, but seemingly not so much in rowing. I'm a believer in 'training to train' - the idea that each training intensity is training for the next intensity up - UT2 is a base for UT1 is a base for AT is a base for TR is a base for AN. It also suits my completest psychology. Rowers operate in a milieu where a polarized approach is the order of the day, and the middle intensities - UT1 and AT - are pretty much ignored. However effective this is, it seems weird to me I'm afraid - it's like eating a cake with no filling.

I have not actually done lactate testing but am getting a lactate monitor to play around with it. I also have a good contact at a local university here through my son's TKD studio; he's a grad student doing some research that has to do with VO2 Max, Lactate, HR, etc. and he's offered to bring me in for some lab testing whenever I want. Definitely taking him up on it!

Like a few comments, it's getting bigger and bigger in other endurance sports and seemingly with a lot of positive results and success.

Rowing is a bit different sport than cycling and running as there seems to be a bigger strength/power component but it's hard to deny the success some athletes are seeing in other sports.

It feels to me like a lot of rowers take a polarized approach - a lot of "easy" work that's low intensity, bits of hard work that is very hard. I'm not smart enough or experienced enough to say if this is right / wrong, optimal / sub-optimal, etc., but it's worth exploring (IMO) some of the methods that other endurance athletes are taking.

For example, the Ingebrigten's are competing in events which are both shorter and longer than the typical time domain as a 2k, as well as some events fairly close to it, and their training is heavy on lactate threshold type efforts. Yes, a lot of easier volume and a smidge of the higher intensity (ie. race pace / effort) but also a lot of controlled threshold efforts. Their training is more pyramidal than polarized it seems.

There are also a lot of triathletes who are training for much longer duration events using similar types of training, albeit more volume in general as you can get away with it in swimming and cycling as opposed to strictly running.

jcross485 wrote: ↑

January 5th, 2024, 2:17 pm

It feels to me like a lot of rowers take a polarized approach - a lot of "easy" work that's low intensity, bits of hard work that is very hard. I'm not smart enough or experienced enough to say if this is right / wrong, optimal / sub-optimal, etc., but it's worth exploring (IMO) some of the methods that other endurance athletes are taking.

For example, the Ingebrigten's are competing in events which are both shorter and longer than the typical time domain as a 2k, as well as some events fairly close to it, and their training is heavy on lactate threshold type efforts. Yes, a lot of easier volume and a smidge of the higher intensity (ie. race pace / effort) but also a lot of controlled threshold efforts. Their training is more pyramidal than polarized it seems.

I may be missing the point here entirely, but just my two cents... The Ingebrigsten's are complete outliers, from the mile through 10k they're capable of topping a podium across the board, not even Mo Farah would've entertained the idea of a 1500m (happy to be proven wrong). I don't follow the sport so much these days, but I believe there was talk of an attempt at a mile (or 3k?) World record. Anyway, they'll have logged a lot of miles in their youth, building a massive aerobic base to build off as adults. Say one, may be two competitions to peak for a year, relative to a rower who will spending four years training for a shot at the Olympics? I can see why a runner may take a more pyramidal approach.

I'm new to rowing as a primary sport and the only thing that strikes me as being a little "behind the times" is the apparent lack of focus on watts, a lot of what I read focuses on pace and stroke rate. Elite level cyclists focused on watts (and admittedly substances) for years before it filtered down to the recreational cyclist. I can manipulate the pace I cycle at without too much thought, but can't hide from the direct power and effort I'm applying through the pedals.

alex9026 wrote: ↑

January 5th, 2024, 2:41 pm

jcross485 wrote: ↑

January 5th, 2024, 2:17 pm

It feels to me like a lot of rowers take a polarized approach - a lot of "easy" work that's low intensity, bits of hard work that is very hard. I'm not smart enough or experienced enough to say if this is right / wrong, optimal / sub-optimal, etc., but it's worth exploring (IMO) some of the methods that other endurance athletes are taking.

For example, the Ingebrigten's are competing in events which are both shorter and longer than the typical time domain as a 2k, as well as some events fairly close to it, and their training is heavy on lactate threshold type efforts. Yes, a lot of easier volume and a smidge of the higher intensity (ie. race pace / effort) but also a lot of controlled threshold efforts. Their training is more pyramidal than polarized it seems.

I'm new to rowing as a primary sport and the only thing that strikes me as being a little "behind the times" is the apparent lack of focus on watts, a lot of what I read focuses on pace and stroke rate. Elite level cyclists focused on watts (and admittedly substances) for years before it filtered down to the recreational cyclist. I can manipulate the pace I cycle at without too much thought, but can't hide from the direct power and effort I'm applying through the pedals.

Why rowers don't use watts as a primary metric is one of the greatest mysteries of our time.

I think cox boxes in boats just measure pace, rate, distance, time, strokes. I am not sure that watts is an option. It can be hard to bounce between units of measurement, which may be why most rowers settle on pace. I can see arguments for watts, especially if one is splitting time on a RowErg and bike.

I meant to add earlier - lactate testing is likely more than the average athlete really needs.

Elizabeth wrote: ↑

January 5th, 2024, 2:58 pm

I think cox boxes in boats just measure pace, rate, distance, time, strokes. I am not sure that watts is an option. It can be hard to bounce between units of measurement, which may be why most rowers settle on pace. I can see arguments for watts, especially if one is splitting time on a RowErg and bike.

I meant to add earlier - lactate testing is likely more than the average athlete really needs.

In fairness, on the erg, training to pace is pretty much the same as training to watts. There's a reason C2 have a pace/watts calculator.

hikeplusrow wrote: ↑

January 5th, 2024, 3:18 pm

Elizabeth wrote: ↑

January 5th, 2024, 2:58 pm

I think cox boxes in boats just measure pace, rate, distance, time, strokes. I am not sure that watts is an option. It can be hard to bounce between units of measurement, which may be why most rowers settle on pace. I can see arguments for watts, especially if one is splitting time on a RowErg and bike.

I meant to add earlier - lactate testing is likely more than the average athlete really needs.

In fairness, on the erg, training to pace is pretty much the same as training to watts. There's a reason C2 have a pace/watts calculator.

I agree, and equate it to °C/°F or kilos/pounds. They're basically the same. But if you're used to one, it's easier to work with that one than it is to bounce back and forth.

Calories or calories/hour as an erg metric, on the other hand... I don't touch those.

alex9026 wrote: ↑

January 5th, 2024, 2:41 pm

not even Mo Farah would've entertained the idea of a 1500m (happy to be proven wrong).

Mo Farah ran 3:28.81 in one of his few 1500m races.

johnlvs2run wrote: ↑

January 5th, 2024, 6:27 pm

alex9026 wrote: ↑

January 5th, 2024, 2:41 pm

not even Mo Farah would've entertained the idea of a 1500m (happy to be proven wrong).

Mo Farah ran 3:28.81 in one of his few 1500m races.

I believe this is a national record - faster than Coe, Ovett or Cram. Extraordinary.

Fair enough, I wasn't aware, does his record still stand today? Would love to see what the likes of Cram and co would run with the facilities and nutrition knowledge etc the modern day athlete has at their disposal.

Elizabeth wrote: ↑

January 5th, 2024, 2:58 pm

I think cox boxes in boats just measure pace, rate, distance, time, strokes. I am not sure that watts is an option. It can be hard to bounce between units of measurement, which may be why most rowers settle on pace. I can see arguments for watts, especially if one is splitting time on a RowErg and bike.

I meant to add earlier - lactate testing is likely more than the average athlete really needs.

Makes sense, I should've specified the erg. Absolutely agree with the last paragraph.

KirklandBrian wrote: ↑

January 3rd, 2024, 11:59 am

Does anyone do any lactate Threshold training using the Skierg/Rowerg?

Duh! If you are any good, you do lactate threshold training. That means doing 5Ks, 30min where the pace is somewhat uncomfortable. Not race pace. A lot of long, slow and shorter intervals is not going to get it. Getting a lot of instrumentation involved may be counterproductive. Are you using the devices correctly and at the right time. Are the results being interpreted correctly. If not, one can overtrain or undertrain. I'll go with how I feel and results both now and future. Perhaps for elite athletes with the time and maybe a real coach, more elaborate training/testing makes sense.

Cyclingman1 wrote: ↑

January 6th, 2024, 4:11 pm

KirklandBrian wrote: ↑

January 3rd, 2024, 11:59 am

Does anyone do any lactate Threshold training using the Skierg/Rowerg?

Duh! If you are any good, you do lactate threshold training. That means doing 5Ks, 30min where the pace is somewhat uncomfortable. Not race pace. A lot of long, slow and shorter intervals is not going to get it. Getting a lot of instrumentation involved may be counterproductive. Are you using the devices correctly and at the right time. Are the results being interpreted correctly. If not, one can overtrain or undertrain. I'll go with how I feel and results both now and future. Perhaps for elite athletes with the time and maybe a real coach, more elaborate training/testing makes sense.

I agree, continuous pieces over 5k/30 mins are ideal for AT training. I personally wouldn't do AT work as intervals, though some do. As you said, the pace is 'somewhat uncomfortable' - 'extended' might be another way to describe it.