Will the real Zone 2 please stand up!

[turkington]

I'm more than a bit confused about how to determine my Zone 2 heart rate for long rows 60 - 120 min and I'm hoping the community can shed some light on the different information available...

* If I use the C2 ErgData app and start a 60 min row and select the "Target HR Zone" option and pick 2, this gives me a 60-70% of max which is 99-115 bpm for me. (I'm 60 with a resting rate of ~55 and use a max HR of 165).

* If I use the same data to calculate bands per the C2 Training guide (https://www.freespiritsrowing.com/forum ... calculator) I get a range of 133-143 bpm for UT1.

* If I use the simplistic Aerobic Threshhold formula of 180-Age I get 120 bpm which seems to agree with ErgData (and Polar Beat). Arguably this is a crude estimation but still, it seems to be in the right range.

My confusion is that C2/Polar/Whoop to name a few seem to use a % of Max HR alone and some others use a % of HR Reserve + resting calculation... Am I missing something obvious here?

Thanks,
Jeff in Whistler

[mjhatten]

I have given up on getting exact zone range convergence. Between NIH, Karvonen, Concept 2, Fitbit, or others, I see differences in ways of estimating HRmax (220 - age vs. 206.9 -.67 x age), whether to use %HR max or %HRR, and what the boundaries are. I chose Concept 2 zones using 206.9 - .67 x age for HRmax and measuring %HRmax.

I remind myself that my body responds the same whether my metabolic calculations are accurate or not.

[contdrift86]

Without a true blood lactate test you will never know what your zone 2 HR/UT2 will be, however I am a big fan of using % of 2km watts. This will 90% of the time fall into line with a specific HR that you see around the place, however it's just a piece of the data puzzle.

For example my 2km time is 6:59.5 which is 303 watts, so I do a lot of my training based off that and just track what my HR is as I know that many factors lead to different HR variances doing the same workout. Lack of sleep, electrolytes imbalance, heat, humidity, life stress, time of day etc all play a part in my HR being anywhere from 5-10 beats higher or lower. However hitting a target watts per session doesn't change and sometimes feeling like I am working a little harder to achieve the target watts is a good think.

This is what I tend to do:

UT2 - 18-20SPM @ 45-60% watts (136-182)
UT1 - 20-22SPM @ 60-70% watts (182-212)
Anaerobic Threshold - 24-28SPM @ 70-80% watts (212-242)
VO2 Max/Transport- 28-32SPM @ 80-105% watts (242-318)
Peak Power/Anaerobic - 32+SPM @ 105-115% watts (318-348)

Generally my HR will fall into the right "band" based on those power outputs and that's all I care about. I find if I concentrate on trying to keep my HR at a specific level my pace goes all funny and the session is almost a waste of time.

[Dangerscouse]

I've given up trying to understand zones and I usually pick a pace that feels right using RPE as it's baffled me how there can be such different zones when using different methods.

If I was going to use one of the zones you mention above, I'd go with the higher HR range as it's almost certain that you won't be pushing it to the absolute maximum on the hardest days, so going as low as 60% of max HR is arguably pointless.

[Ombrax]

I've given up trying to understand zones and I usually pick a pace that feels right using RPE as it's baffled me how there can be such different zones when using different methods.

+1

I choose a pace that will allow to me finish the piece in a good time, and let that determine my HR, not the other way around.

But then again, I'm not following a preset training regimen.

[JaapvanE]

I choose a pace that will allow to me finish the piece in a good time, and let that determine my HR, not the other way around.

But then again, I'm not following a preset training regimen.

When you train polarized, that is not what you should do.

I started to look at how fast my HR goes up, the cardiac drift. The idea is that when crossing the lactate theshold, my HR will increase much faster then when I stay under it. For me (MaxHR 192), my Zone 2 ends around 128. When I hit around 130 for over a minute, I see my HR go up until 135 to 140 in no time. So looking at your HR during a row might help there.

When I look at my breathing rythem, I see changes around the same values (at low pace, it is 1 breath per stroke).

[Ombrax]

When you train polarized, that is not what you should do.

I'm sure you're right, but in my case I'm not trying to eke out the last xx% of performance, I just row.

[JaapvanE]

When you train polarized, that is not what you should do.

I'm sure you're right, but in my case I'm not trying to eke out the last xx% of performance, I just row.

It might work for you. I notice that when I don't monitor my HR, my ego takes the upper hand and I'll still start to row too fast to finish relaxed. Typically, my HR will cross the Zone 2 upper boundary half way a 10K piece, so I end up in Zone 4 somewhere near the end. Not a big issue in itself as I'm not tired, but when I do that 4 to 5 sessions a week, the cumulative load will get to me.

[Sakly]

When you train polarized, that is not what you should do.

I'm sure you're right, but in my case I'm not trying to eke out the last xx% of performance, I just row.

It might work for you. I notice that when I don't monitor my HR, my ego takes the upper hand and I'll still start to row too fast to finish relaxed. Typically, my HR will cross the Zone 2 upper boundary half way a 10K piece, so I end up in Zone 4 somewhere near the end. Not a big issue in itself as I'm not tired, but when I do that 4 to 5 sessions a week, the cumulative load will get to me.

And that will let you ease the next row, no need to track HR for this. Only if tracking is the only thing that can hold back your ego.
I can say for me specifically, if I would let HR dictate my training, I wouldn't be on the level I am.

[JaapvanE]

I can say for me specifically, if I would let HR dictate my training, I wouldn't be on the level I am.

I don't know. Once identified where the threshold is, HR is a pretty good indicator for the anearobic zone. And staying out there for the majority of the trainings is pretty effective. RPE is another approach, but hard to assess during training.

Perhaps you'll learn something from Aram: https://youtu.be/1GYZW1bjfcA where he advocates a similar approach for people aiming at the Olympics: many low intensity training, and very few high intensity stuff.

[Sakly]

I can say for me specifically, if I would let HR dictate my training, I wouldn't be on the level I am.

I don't know. Once identified where the threshold is, HR is a pretty good indicator for the anearobic zone. And staying out there for the majority of the trainings is pretty effective. RPE is another approach, but hard to assess during training.

Perhaps you'll learn something from Aram: https://youtu.be/1GYZW1bjfcA where he advocates a similar approach for people aiming at the Olympics: many low intensity training, and very few high intensity stuff.

We are not talking about aerobic vs. anaerobic. We are talking about several freaking zones called by several different names in different "zone-systems" until we reach anaerobic zone at all.
What I say: I don't let all these zones dictate my training.
What I'm not saying: I go nuts every session to burn me out fully.

[p_b82]

They're only guides the formulas anyway - if you don't actually know the max (not sure if you do, as you said using 165 vs using highest observed etc), then anything you do plug in a little more than a guess anyway - further making the values less meaningful.

That said if you're only rowing a few times a week, then you can afford to go into the hard effort zone any session - whether short and sharp, or longer duration - finding the right Hr/power/pace/RPE for you that means you can do the next session without fatigue or it being harder than it feels like it should be will be down to you and your powers of recovery/ frequency of exercise.

For me personally, as I only row 3x a week I can make every session hard, my max sustainable HR is ~170 for 60mins+ which is ~90% my max observed HR of 191. I've seen my resting hr at 60, but it might be lower still when asleep etc.

When I tried to do my longer rows with Hr peaking ~150 (for Ut2) I made very limited progress - as I wasn't doing enough hard sessions to warrant keeping the longer stuff easy. I also operate with a higher HR than the bandings suggest based on the physiological responses.

[JaapvanE]

We are not talking about aerobic vs. anaerobic. We are talking about several freaking zones called by several different names in different "zone-systems" until we reach anaerobic zone at all.

To be honest, I don't care how people name them. I chose Garmin's 5 zone system simply because that was the one that my watch structurally monitors, but if you switch brands, all zones are indeed messed up.

But let's step aside all BS arguments for specific zone systems and their naming systems, and accept that people want to distinguish between aerobic and anaerobic training. Then the OP's question becomes "How do I distinguish the two", and potentially even "How do you actively manage a session to stay in the desired zone?".

[hikeplusrow]

Without a true blood lactate test you will never know what your zone 2 HR/UT2 will be, however I am a big fan of using % of 2km watts. This will 90% of the time fall into line with a specific HR that you see around the place, however it's just a piece of the data puzzle.

For example my 2km time is 6:59.5 which is 303 watts, so I do a lot of my training based off that and just track what my HR is as I know that many factors lead to different HR variances doing the same workout. Lack of sleep, electrolytes imbalance, heat, humidity, life stress, time of day etc all play a part in my HR being anywhere from 5-10 beats higher or lower. However hitting a target watts per session doesn't change and sometimes feeling like I am working a little harder to achieve the target watts is a good think.

This is what I tend to do:

UT2 - 18-20SPM @ 45-60% watts (136-182)
UT1 - 20-22SPM @ 60-70% watts (182-212)
Anaerobic Threshold - 24-28SPM @ 70-80% watts (212-242)
VO2 Max/Transport- 28-32SPM @ 80-105% watts (242-318)
Peak Power/Anaerobic - 32+SPM @ 105-115% watts (318-348)

Generally my HR will fall into the right "band" based on those power outputs and that's all I care about. I find if I concentrate on trying to keep my HR at a specific level my pace goes all funny and the session is almost a waste of time.

This. I work to a % of 2k power too. Once you've determined these power zones, you can track your HR within each zone. If you want a rough target UT2 HR, just take your average HR during a continuous workout in your UT2 power zone (lower, middle or upper - your choice). However, you will get the dreaded HR drift over longer workouts, so I'd suggest doing a workout of around 30 mins and taking an average from that. However, you could simply forget all this HR shenanigans, and just work to power. The latter would be my recommendation.

[Sakly]

I'm more than a bit confused about how to determine my Zone 2 heart rate for long rows 60 - 120 min

...accept that people want to distinguish between aerobic and anaerobic training. Then the OP's question becomes "How do I distinguish the two", and potentially even "How do you actively manage a session to stay in the desired zone?".

Really?
OP asks for one of the weird zone 2 of different zone models and you break it down to working with our without oxygen?
Not sure if this matches the question.

Anyway, I agree to the power approach and using RPE in parallel as not each day is the same.