Concept2 Forum

I've never done a session longer than 10k, but this is not due to feeling like I'm not fit enough or worrying that I wouldn't enjoy it. My main concern is that longer sessions would lean me out too much, which, at 70kg, would not be a good thing. At the moment I'm trying to put on weight and bulk up a bit, so focussing mainly on a couple of sessions up to 10k per week at UT2 and then a couple of sessions of high intensity strength work with intervals. I'm also doing weights. And eating a lot. I'm already up to 71.5kg.

Do longer distances (eg HMs) necessarily mean losing weight and muscle mass?

Are longer distances good training for shorter distances, or only good for more ultra endurance work?

Is the recovery time on HMs about the same when sticking to UT2?

Is it recommended to fuel up before a longer session?

I don't drink water at all during 10k, would it be the same with 20k or is it necessary to somehow take a drink while not letting up on the stroke?

I used to do a lot of road cycling and mostly quite long distances, so my body is well suited to endurance activities. When I was at my fittest on the bike I had dropped down to 67kg, which I really didn't like. It was great for 1 hour+ hill climbs, but I felt like I'd been burning off muscle mass and had lost a bit of power.

robhely wrote: ↑

November 7th, 2023, 3:25 am

Do longer distances (eg HMs) necessarily mean losing weight and muscle mass?

I hoped to lose weight (I row 3 10K's, a 15K and a HM a week), but that didn't happen for me. But on longer distances, I like to stay in HR Zone 2.

robhely wrote: ↑

November 7th, 2023, 3:25 am

Is it recommended to fuel up before a longer session?

Yes, because you do burn a lot of energy.

robhely wrote: ↑

November 7th, 2023, 3:25 am

I don't drink water at all during 10k, would it be the same with 20k or is it necessary to somehow take a drink while not letting up on the stroke?

I don't drink during rows, as it just becomes a mess with water everywhere and a lost rythem. I drink enough before and after.

I am looking at my first FM, and there I'm seriously considering eat/drink and toilet breaks as it is over three hours.

I don't typically drink anything up to an hour in duration, but for above that I've needed to as I sweat enough that I need the fluids, and to clear mucus from my mouth.

I have a squeezy bottle I can grab and have a few mouthfuls while rowing just one armed - pace drops off for a few strokes, but it's better for me than stopping and drinking from a glass (had to do that yesterday during my row a couple of times abnormally)

As to the weight aspects, it's all going to depend on the diet to support it - a HM at a low intensity is still going to burn a lot of calories due to the duration aspect, but if at a higher work rate, you then get the strength endurance aspect creeping in which would help a little with the muscle side I'd have thought.
Obviously not as effective as a dedicated weights session but it would help a bit.

I've lost ~10lbs so far since I started rowing, I was sorta aiming for sub 190, but I'm hovering around 195, but this year I've been doing a lot less volume, but my body shape has changed quite a bit in the time, even if the weight hasn't done loads.

I would say that anything that helps build the aerobic base fits well for anything down to 2k, 1k and lower is then a scale down towards sheer anaerobic power for the shortest 1' sprint.

p_b82 wrote: ↑

November 7th, 2023, 5:28 am

I have a squeezy bottle I can grab and have a few mouthfuls while rowing just one armed - pace drops off for a few strokes, but it's better for me than stopping and drinking from a glass (had to do that yesterday during my row a couple of times abnormally)

How do you breath during that period? I always end up disturbing my breathing rythem?

I think everybody is different, so there is no general answer.
I do 3 strength/bodyweight sessions per week since years, weight was stable at ~79kg.
Started rowing last year in January, near to 4mm meters now, so averaging 182k per month, but no effect on weight. I eat enough, probably a bit more since rowing. Not lost any strength, more the opposite.
Rowed my first FM two month ago with no drinking, no eating. It was on a more or less easy pace, so I don't know if I would need to drink/eat at a faster pace.

robhely wrote: ↑

November 7th, 2023, 3:25 am

Do longer distances (eg HMs) necessarily mean losing weight and muscle mass?

No, but you need to eat to support it. A lot (all?) of the top rowers regularly put in this many meters in training. They also lift.

I don't know what your diet looks like at the moment, but when adding volume, I have found it really helpful to track nutrition for a few days for a check-in on whether my food consumption is keeping up. I decided to add in an extra meal at one point, two extras on heavier volume days. Adding more calorie dense food is also an option.

robhely wrote: ↑

November 7th, 2023, 3:25 am

Are longer distances good training for shorter distances, or only good for more ultra endurance work?

The main differentiation is really the kind of speed work that you are doing. I'm not sure what you're considering short, but building a large base is common at high levels while training for a 2k. I've put in a lot this year and have been successful at shorter distances (500m, 1k). But, I have also been putting in the speed work and lifting.

robhely wrote: ↑

November 7th, 2023, 3:25 am

Is the recovery time on HMs about the same when sticking to UT2?

I think so - I don't need much recovery. It's the harder sessions that leave me needing to go to bed early. But if you're not used to it, you may need more recovery at first. I personally question sleep and food before I start leaving more time between training sessions.

robhely wrote: ↑

November 7th, 2023, 3:25 am

Is it recommended to fuel up before a longer session?

I don't drink water at all during 10k, would it be the same with 20k or is it necessary to somehow take a drink while not letting up on the stroke?

It's probably smart to fuel, I sometimes do and I sometimes don't. Same with water. In the summer, absolutely, but I did 22km in 3C temps yesterday and didn't bother with water. It wouldn't hurt to have some nearby and then see how you feel.

Elizabeth wrote: ↑

November 7th, 2023, 6:57 am

I did 22km in 3C temps yesterday and didn't bother with water.

You mean you didn't bother with the Ice Cubes....

JaapvanE wrote: ↑

November 7th, 2023, 5:53 am

p_b82 wrote: ↑

November 7th, 2023, 5:28 am

I have a squeezy bottle I can grab and have a few mouthfuls while rowing just one armed - pace drops off for a few strokes, but it's better for me than stopping and drinking from a glass (had to do that yesterday during my row a couple of times abnormally)

How do you breath during that period? I always end up disturbing my breathing rythem?

I take a small squeeze/mouthful on each stroke and then breath - it's obviously much easier at lower rates - I think I've done 5-8 strokes duration at a time to get a decent enough drink to feel refreshed without overly impacting things or slowing down too much either.

Post drink I do tend to need to do a bit of catchup though, but as it's only a few strokes it's not normally too bad/difficult.

robhely wrote: ↑

November 7th, 2023, 3:25 am

Do longer distances (eg HMs) necessarily mean losing weight and muscle mass?

Are longer distances good training for shorter distances, or only good for more ultra endurance work?

Is the recovery time on HMs about the same when sticking to UT2?

Is it recommended to fuel up before a longer session?

I don't drink water at all during 10k, would it be the same with 20k or is it necessary to somehow take a drink while not letting up on the stroke?

Some great advice so far, but IME:

I've only lost notable weight when I was doing 50k+ (in one session), and combined with another four rowing sessions, dynamic hot Pilates and a weight training session. Ever since stopping ultra distances, my weight had remained very stable, and I've lost a little of weight but that's been a good thing.

I think that muscle mass doesn't have to suffer but I assume that this will be at least partly dictated by body type ie mesomorph, endomorph or ectomorph. I'd recommend more food and/or protein shakes, but it's more of a try it and continually assess performance scenario.

I'd say longer distances are good for all types of distances, on the proviso that you don't become too 'lazy' with doing longer distances ie you subtly start to avoid the pain of shorter distances as you adapt to longer distances. What is useful is to add in some tough paced HMs / 10 miles sessions.

Ime, recovery isn't an issue for a HM, but you might be different. I think I have got good recoverability, but I've never compared it to anyone else.

Again, ime, anything less than 32k is fine with no drinks or food. I'll have a strong coffee, a banana and about 400ml of water but that's all I need. I've never risked going further, but it's not really felt like I'm rowing on fumes when I'm done, so it might be fine. I do eat and drink a lot generally, so it might be that I've got good resources to pull from.

When I do drink, I always row one handed and make sure to do it when it's not near the start of a interval, as the time is massively skewed if you do, and you can waste energy trying to make up for the loss of time. If you do it around or after halfway through the interval, it's no way near as bad.

JaapvanE wrote: ↑

November 7th, 2023, 4:44 am

robhely wrote: ↑

November 7th, 2023, 3:25 am

Do longer distances (eg HMs) necessarily mean losing weight and muscle mass?

I hoped to lose weight (I row 3 10K's, a 15K and a HM a week), but that didn't happen for me. But on longer distances, I like to stay in HR Zone 2.

Perhaps you replaced fat by muscles?
The specific gravity of muscles is higher, it can explain you didn't lose weight.
If this is what happend, you may have become slimmer without losing weight

If you are doing weights and eating a lot you shouldn't lose muscle mass unless you start doing a lot of very long rows. As far as drinking I am like Stu (Dangerscouse) in that I never really drink during a row until it gets up to over 30K. When I do a FM or longer I will take quick drinks and maybe eat a chunk of banana every 5k or 10K. I find that longer rows help with most rows 2K an up but as others have said if testing under that need to build power and do shorter intervals which it sounds like you are. With you background, focusing a bit more on strength makes sense.

One aspect to consider is whether you want to row as a heavyweight (over 75 kg) or lightweight (up to 75kg). I've massively increased my protein intake since I started rowing, and feel much better for it. I don't calorie count, and eat until I stop feeling hungry. I stay at 70kg with no problems at all. My diet is very high in carbs.

Concerning hydration, I always load up on water prior to any type of workout. I've never rowed further than a HM, but have found no need to drink while rowing. When I used to run marathons and ultras (in my 20s), I would frequently do training sessions of 24 miles or so, often in warm weather, without drinking during the workout. However, if attempting a marathon on the rower (which I hope to do), I'm thinking I'd probably need to drink due to the significant fluid loss.

I suppose it depends on your body type but, no matter how much I exercise, if I want to lose weight I need to focus on losing weight. For me at least, it doesn't happen by accident. I sometimes drink on a longer row (one hand on the handle for two strokes) but I never feel like I need to eat. I drink Roctane which has carbs.

Thanks everyone for the wealth of information, you've given me a lot to think about.

It's really good to know that the general consensus is that I won't start losing weight on longer rows (to a point) as long my diet is appropriate.

And that the higher volume will be good base for shorter distances as long as I don't neglect the speed work.

I'd really like to try some HMs at a slow pace and then, if I'm feeling comfortable, have a go at rating up at bit. I imagine pacing will be very difficult here as it's uncharted terrain for me. If I'm doing 10ks reasonably hard out at around 1:58, Would I aim for 2:05s?

I did my first 10k at 1:53.3, my first HM 3 days later at 1:56.5, but spm 4 strokes lower. Don't know if it helps, but that are my numbers
Rule of thumb is doubled distance go +5s/500m.