Keeping within UT2 HR zones

[ShortAndStout]

Been rowing since april and have almost 1M meters clocked in that time. I do a lot of UT2 SS.

When I first started rowing I was curious about the HR band guidance a lot of people go by and ended up determining that my HR is just higher than normal. My SS for example tends to be an hour at a time, usually 2:18-2:20/500m. Average HR fluctuates per workout but is typically 160-170BPM average. My Max HR is 205 so about 80% of my max HR, for example. Around 13k per workout.

2:20 seems slow to me already and mentally, I'm not willing to go slower. Maybe that's an issue. My 2K time (back in June) was 7:45 (1:55/500m roughly) so doing SS at 2K + 25 seems right, so my 2:20 seems alright all things considered.

Take then the following HR bands from free spirits:


Where it clearly states 55-70% HR for UT2 SS. That band is mean 147 +- 10. If I slow down to that HR I will be pulling like 2:45s or slower I think, at which point it's not really a workout. 2K+50 isn't something I see recommended very often. Incidentally, this makes it very hard to follow HR band training like the Fletcher marathon plan, so I do that SS pace most of the time and ignore HR completely because it just doesn't line up with my physiologically.

Not here to complain or ask questions even - I've learned to ignore this and sort of do my own thing workout wise, but I'm curious to hear other's data on this phenomenon.

[Sakly]

I'm not a huge advocate of HR based training.
In rowing you want to train a strong stroke, so you have to do strong strokes. For your steady you want to do it on a low rate for a long time, for your (probably personal) races you want to do it for a specific distance or time at max effort on a high rate, but with the same trained stroke.

HR (=intensity levels) comes into play, when your overall volume is getting so high, that your recovery could be influenced. Doing 3 sessions a week you don't have to bother at all, you get at least >40h recovery at minimum, if equally distributed over the week.
I only back off a bit when I feel higher fatigue, when recovery is not going well. I typically do 3-4 sessions a week, but do 3 gym sessions in parallel, so this affects my recovery much. For my steadies I work up to ~80% HRM, sometimes bit above. This equates to ~2k+20-25 based on daily form and chosen rate.

[jamesg]

Rowing is all about technique. It's impossible to learn to row at high ratings. So keep the rating low, learn how, gradually increase the power level, and let your heart do what it must.

If HR gets too high we can always stop or drop the rating. Up to 2 hours work a week won't cause any problems; and if we pull hard it may also help us keep up our strength, as well as fitness.

NB we can use HR Range, not flat percents of max.
So 70% (UT2) of range say 50 to 200 would be 50+105 = 165.

There can be little doubt that with HR 165 at rate 20 you wil be rowing very well indeed.

[p_b82]

I used the Hr bandings when I was starting out, because I've a dodgy back (lower back in particular) I was very very wary of aggravating that so I made sure I kept the effort very low, HR ~150
For the first 3 months my back ached 24/7 - but now I can't remember the last time my back gave me jip - so I approached things there in the right way with hindsight I think.

My body also runs a bit "hot" in term of HR for a given physiological response - when I realised this, and also that I was not doing anywhere near the required volume to factor in recovery, I just crank it up to 170bpm.
If I plug my known numbers into HHR bandings that 170 bpm is 85% (I'm not precisely sure of my resting HR as I don't wear anything that monitors it 24/7, so I've estimated it based on a few bpm lower than I've witnessed sitting on the erg before a session - so 60; it's typically in the 70's when sat at my desk for work.) - if I take max observed it's ~90% absolute max.

I could still just about hold a slightly faltering conversation at 170bpm (I occasionally burst into a spontaneous singalong as I'm rowing, which isn't continuous) - which on some of the descriptions shouldn't be the case.

I don't hit the TR responses until my HR is ~180, but the AN responses are right at around 185 - so at the upper end things can quickly escalate for me.

Some of it might be more down to me observing certain values and then equating it to responses though, so I kinda take it with a pinch of salt tbh.

[Dangerscouse]

Imo HR is only useful to a certain point and only as a guide rather than an absolute.

What is far more important is that you're enjoying it, recovering from it and progressing. Everything else can be discarded if you want, and if I was you, I certainly would do that.

I'd assess what is normal for you and use those parameters, not least as these will probably change over time as you improve and will provide a far more enjoyable experience

[jackarabit]

James doesn’t show the formula for his UT2 zone determination. It’s %HRReserve + RestingHR, Reserve being Max Heart Rate - Resting. The %MaxHR in the Free Spirits zone scheme is a corruption of the zone training formula in the now defunct Indoor Sports Services “interactive training plans” based on the work of Terry O’Neill. The ISS also used the column head %MaxHR but did the calculation with RHR segregated to calculate as % of effective HR range. I used % of max power (% of 2k test average watts) for TR and AN zones and tried to do UT2 work in UT2 zone as determined by %(MaxHR - RestingHR) +Resting HR. Belt and suspenders were a lot of trouble!

[jcross485]

Every one pretty well hit it here - HR is something nice to track but it is not the be-all, end-all when it comes to programming or limiting training.

I track it almost every session but am not limiting my session by it, rather I am looking to see if any given session appears to be physiologically harder, easier, or about the same as prior sessions.

For example, if I was pulling steady state work around a 2:07 at a given heart rate but have progressed down to a 2:05 at the same heart rate or am pulling 2:07 at a lower heart rate, it's a good indication that the training is working and I am getting fitter.

On the flip side, if I go a few sessions in a row with a bit slower pace or higher heart rate than expected, it's an indication that I might need to do a few things - incorporate a bit more intensity (I find this helps efficiency in the stroke), make sure my strength work is consistent (same reason - make sure I am keeping up strength / power overall), or even that I am in a generally fatigued state from more volume, lack of sleep, lack of nutrition, etc.

From my personal experience, I agree with the folks saying that it is imperative to develop a strong stroke at a lower rate. Once you get this, you can then start working on higher rate intervals or sessions to produce more speed and power.

[ShortAndStout]

Every one pretty well hit it here - HR is something nice to track but it is not the be-all, end-all when it comes to programming or limiting training.

I track it almost every session but am not limiting my session by it, rather I am looking to see if any given session appears to be physiologically harder, easier, or about the same as prior sessions.

For example, if I was pulling steady state work around a 2:07 at a given heart rate but have progressed down to a 2:05 at the same heart rate or am pulling 2:07 at a lower heart rate, it's a good indication that the training is working and I am getting fitter.

On the flip side, if I go a few sessions in a row with a bit slower pace or higher heart rate than expected, it's an indication that I might need to do a few things - incorporate a bit more intensity (I find this helps efficiency in the stroke), make sure my strength work is consistent (same reason - make sure I am keeping up strength / power overall), or even that I am in a generally fatigued state from more volume, lack of sleep, lack of nutrition, etc.

From my personal experience, I agree with the folks saying that it is imperative to develop a strong stroke at a lower rate. Once you get this, you can then start working on higher rate intervals or sessions to produce more speed and power.

I'm interested to hear more about the strong stroke at lower rate. I don't incorporate nearly enough intense work into my workouts and have been looking for something I can do that I also enjoy. At 2:20 SS my stroke is usually between 18 or 20 (128W / 19 = 6.7w/s, which I hear is low, but its also SS so idk?). I know workouts like 8x500 exist but frankly they just aren't that enjoyable for me, because I am completely, utterly gassed at the end of them.

The workouts I've been enjoying that are more intense are from the fletcher plan ironically, things like 20 minutes of HM pace (for me that's around 155W/24sr) sandwiched between 20min 128W. Although I suspect that's not intense enough, I probably need to do like 180W for 5 minute intervals (my 5K pace), or about 2K+8. Doing my full 2K or even 2K-2 pace for 500 meter sessions is really demoralizing because it makes me feel so bad afterwards

[Sakly]

Every one pretty well hit it here - HR is something nice to track but it is not the be-all, end-all when it comes to programming or limiting training.

I track it almost every session but am not limiting my session by it, rather I am looking to see if any given session appears to be physiologically harder, easier, or about the same as prior sessions.

For example, if I was pulling steady state work around a 2:07 at a given heart rate but have progressed down to a 2:05 at the same heart rate or am pulling 2:07 at a lower heart rate, it's a good indication that the training is working and I am getting fitter.

On the flip side, if I go a few sessions in a row with a bit slower pace or higher heart rate than expected, it's an indication that I might need to do a few things - incorporate a bit more intensity (I find this helps efficiency in the stroke), make sure my strength work is consistent (same reason - make sure I am keeping up strength / power overall), or even that I am in a generally fatigued state from more volume, lack of sleep, lack of nutrition, etc.

From my personal experience, I agree with the folks saying that it is imperative to develop a strong stroke at a lower rate. Once you get this, you can then start working on higher rate intervals or sessions to produce more speed and power.

I'm interested to hear more about the strong stroke at lower rate. I don't incorporate nearly enough intense work into my workouts and have been looking for something I can do that I also enjoy. At 2:20 SS my stroke is usually between 18 or 20 (128W / 19 = 6.7w/s, which I hear is low, but its also SS so idk?). I know workouts like 8x500 exist but frankly they just aren't that enjoyable for me, because I am completely, utterly gassed at the end of them.

The workouts I've been enjoying that are more intense are from the fletcher plan ironically, things like 20 minutes of HM pace (for me that's around 155W/24sr) sandwiched between 20min 128W. Although I suspect that's not intense enough, I probably need to do like 180W for 5 minute intervals (my 5K pace), or about 2K+8. Doing my full 2K or even 2K-2 pace for 500 meter sessions is really demoralizing because it makes me feel so bad afterwards

Steady state does not mean to weaken your stroke to stay in a HR band. I do my steady states at my typical stroke with an SPI of ~11, but a low rate 16-17. This ensures enough rest between stokes to recover from stroke to stroke. If you want to increase intensity, rate up.

Intervals with 500s are meant to be hard and make you feel bad. Otherwise they won't work.

[ShortAndStout]

Steady state does not mean to weaken your stroke to stay in a HR band. I do my steady states at my typical stroke with an SPI of ~11, but a low rate 16-17. This ensures enough rest between stokes to recover from stroke to stroke. If you want to increase intensity, rate up.

Intervals with 500s are meant to be hard and make you feel bad. Otherwise they won't work.

From your signature it looks like you sit around 1:41 2K split, so your SS at SPI 11 R16 is around... 180W / 2:04 split? Forgive my bad algebra. So for your UT2 that's still 2K + 25, so good to see that the formula is roughly generic.

Here's a question: How long is your UT2 SS usually? Your SPI is ~11, I could realistically see myself going for ~8.5 (155/18) but not for 60 minutes at a time. Probably 30. The thing I worry about with this is, at that rate I'm not really doing UT2 anymore, it's more like UT1 or even into the AT / TR territory. Which is fine, I need to do intense work anyway, but my point is that it's intense work and no longer UT2 SS.

Am I conflating UT2 and SS? Can / should you SS at other thresholds?

[Sakly]

Steady state does not mean to weaken your stroke to stay in a HR band. I do my steady states at my typical stroke with an SPI of ~11, but a low rate 16-17. This ensures enough rest between stokes to recover from stroke to stroke. If you want to increase intensity, rate up.

Intervals with 500s are meant to be hard and make you feel bad. Otherwise they won't work.

From your signature it looks like you sit around 1:41 2K split, so your SS at SPI 11 R16 is around... 180W / 2:04 split? Forgive my bad algebra. So for your UT2 that's still 2K + 25, so good to see that the formula is roughly generic.

Here's a question: How long is your UT2 SS usually? Your SPI is ~11, I could realistically see myself going for ~8.5 (155/18) but not for 60 minutes at a time. Probably 30. The thing I worry about with this is, at that rate I'm not really doing UT2 anymore, it's more like UT1 or even into the AT / TR territory. Which is fine, I need to do intense work anyway, but my point is that it's intense work and no longer UT2 SS.

Am I conflating UT2 and SS? Can / should you SS at other thresholds?

Your calculations are correct, typically my steadies are around 2:00 to 2:04 depending on the day. 2k PB is kind of outdated, I assume it is more ~1:39 now, but no big difference.
Again, steady state does not directly link to a heart rate for me, so SS is not equal to UT2. I use my steady state sessions to train my stroke technique and power, so I use a low rate to have a really good catch and sequence. My typical steady session is a 60min, but sometimes also a HM or a 10k, depending on available time. Typically my HR settles in to roughly 75-80% of HR max, sometimes even a bit higher (e.g. yesterday it went up to 157/85% for a 60min r17 @2:01.8, but that's not typical, I had a 3 weeks break), but I don't mind as long as I can sufficiently recover from it.
If this is too long for you, why not braking it down to intervals? Do 3x10, if this works well, continue with 3x15, then 3x20, 2x25, 2x30 until 60min block is no problem. Your body needs time for adaptation.

[ShortAndStout]

Your calculations are correct, typically my steadies are around 2:00 to 2:04 depending on the day. 2k PB is kind of outdated, I assume it is more ~1:39 now, but no big difference.
Again, steady state does not directly link to a heart rate for me, so SS is not equal to UT2. I use my steady state sessions to train my stroke technique and power, so I use a low rate to have a really good catch and sequence. My typical steady session is a 60min, but sometimes also a HM or a 10k, depending on available time. Typically my HR settles in to roughly 75-80% of HR max, sometimes even a bit higher (e.g. yesterday it went up to 157/85% for a 60min r17 @2:01.8, but that's not typical, I had a 3 weeks break), but I don't mind as long as I can sufficiently recover from it.
If this is too long for you, why not braking it down to intervals? Do 3x10, if this works well, continue with 3x15, then 3x20, 2x25, 2x30 until 60min block is no problem. Your body needs time for adaptation.

I appreciate the input, I guess I keep thinking that since I can do 60 minutes at once with my SS, I should be able to do every other workout without breaking it up, which isn't realistic.

Question, do you consider your SS to be intense work or aerobic? Slow but powerful strokes seems aerobic, but I guess that's different for everyone. In that case, a more explicit question: What do your aerobic exercises look like and how do they differ from your speed work?

[Sakly]

Question, do you consider your SS to be intense work or aerobic? Slow but powerful strokes seems aerobic, but I guess that's different for everyone. In that case, a more explicit question: What do your aerobic exercises look like and how do they differ from your speed work?

Of course my SS work is fully aerobic and no intens work. It slightly differs from day to day and how I feel, I reassess based on my current level of recovery. If the first strokes feel alright, I work at aimed pace. Typically 3-4 sessions in a week, besides my 3 (intense) gym sessions. This is the reason I mainly focus on steadies on the erg, to be able to recover properly.
Sometimes I throw in grey zone or AT sessions at a higher rate or with rate changes, probably r20-24 and rarely I do intervals to build speed. Classic versions like 4x1k r3 or 8x500 r2.

[ShortAndStout]

Question, do you consider your SS to be intense work or aerobic? Slow but powerful strokes seems aerobic, but I guess that's different for everyone. In that case, a more explicit question: What do your aerobic exercises look like and how do they differ from your speed work?

Of course my SS work is fully aerobic and no intens work. It slightly differs from day to day and how I feel, I reassess based on my current level of recovery. If the first strokes feel alright, I work at aimed pace. Typically 3-4 sessions in a week, besides my 3 (intense) gym sessions. This is the reason I mainly focus on steadies on the erg, to be able to recover properly.
Sometimes I throw in grey zone or AT sessions at a higher rate or with rate changes, probably r20-24 and rarely I do intervals to build speed. Classic versions like 4x1k r3 or 8x500 r2.

I guess this is getting to the heart of my issue, I don't know how to build speed effectively. You say you don''t do intervals to build speed (or rarely) so would you say a lot of your speed comes from your AT sessions or gym sessions (presumably lifting)?

[Sakly]

Question, do you consider your SS to be intense work or aerobic? Slow but powerful strokes seems aerobic, but I guess that's different for everyone. In that case, a more explicit question: What do your aerobic exercises look like and how do they differ from your speed work?

Of course my SS work is fully aerobic and no intens work. It slightly differs from day to day and how I feel, I reassess based on my current level of recovery. If the first strokes feel alright, I work at aimed pace. Typically 3-4 sessions in a week, besides my 3 (intense) gym sessions. This is the reason I mainly focus on steadies on the erg, to be able to recover properly.
Sometimes I throw in grey zone or AT sessions at a higher rate or with rate changes, probably r20-24 and rarely I do intervals to build speed. Classic versions like 4x1k r3 or 8x500 r2.

I guess this is getting to the heart of my issue, I don't know how to build speed effectively. You say you don''t do intervals to build speed (or rarely) so would you say a lot of your speed comes from your AT sessions or gym sessions (presumably lifting)?

Yes, exactly this is the case. My gym sessions are not the usual weight lifting ones everybody knows, they consist mainly of bodyweight exercises and metcon style, so high amounts of reps, often done to exhaustion or supersets of higher intensity exercises. This builds much strength endurance, which is also needed on the erg, so the CVS works very similar.
My first HM after 3 weeks on the rower was 1:21:59 at r20, this was already 226W average with an SPI >11.
This is the reason why I do intervals rarely.
If you only row, I would suggest 2 hard sessions per week (these are the key sessions) and the rest of the week can be filled with steady sessions as many as you like and can recover from to build a bigger base.