Concept2 Forum

I do an half-marathon every Sunday, usually at 2:12 pace (which is the pace I plan to use for a full marathon, my HM PB is at pace 2:05.2).

In a separate thread Carl Watts suggested that rowing at 23 spm instead of let's say 19 spm (for the same pace) would give me a lower HR, so I gave it a try.
04 June was my vanilla steady state HM.
11 June I increased spm from avg 19.9 to avg 22.6.
18 June I kept the higher spm (avg 22.6), upped the DF a bit and (probably most important) I used a camelbak to drink (~200-250ml every every 15min).

Huge difference: the avg HR went down very significantly !
I recomputed the avg HR from stroke-by-stroke data and I got 151/149/143, so no tricks with HR at end of splits.
For the 3 sessions, temperature was basically identical (23-25C). 3 logs are here: 04Jun, 11Jun, 18Jun.

Guess I'm not rowing an HM without drinking again.

P.S.
Damn, I hate the camelbak (Hydrapak Force 3L) is such a pain to manipulate, clean and dry. I'm pondering something less annoying, like a small tank (maybe insulated) + the camelbak tube and valve. Ideas welcome

HornetMaX wrote: ↑

June 18th, 2023, 12:41 pm

Damn, I hate the camelbak (Hydrapak Force 3L) is such a pain to manipulate, clean and dry. I'm pondering something less annoying, like a small tank (maybe insulated) + the camelbak tube and valve. Ideas welcome

I tried to use one and gave up straight away: far too much trouble. I just row one-handed and grab a drink and then pull a few harder strokes to get back on track.

HornetMaX wrote: ↑

June 18th, 2023, 12:41 pm

04 June was my vanilla steady state HM.
11 June I increased spm from avg 19.9 to avg 22.6.
18 June I kept the higher spm (avg 22.6), upped the DF a bit and (probably most important) I used a camelbak to drink (~200-250ml every every 15min).

Huge difference: the avg HR went down very significantly !

Guess I'm not rowing an HM without drinking again.

That is a very interesting observation! I row HM's 2 to 3 times a month (I'm still building up after an injury, so I'm extremely cautious about training load). I never got the hang of drinking during a row. I try to pre-drink: so an hour before I try to make sure I drink enough (see https://www.mayoclinic.org/healthy-life ... t-20045506). I must say, after an hour, I do get a dry mouth, so getting some water somehow might be helpful.

HornetMaX wrote: ↑

June 18th, 2023, 12:41 pm

Damn, I hate the camelbak (Hydrapak Force 3L) is such a pain to manipulate, clean and dry. I'm pondering something less annoying, like a small tank (maybe insulated) + the camelbak tube and valve. Ideas welcome

I tried camelback squezeable flasks, and AA-drink standard 0.5L bottles. I also tried hanging a 3L camelback on a rope and use the hose. Basically, during rowing it turns everything in a mess. Might be that I'm too clumsy, but rowing, squezing/holding something and breathing in a certain rythem will lead to a lot of messy drinking.

I considered a backpack, but I'm worried about heating up, so I am extremely curious about your experiences with this.

JaapvanE wrote: ↑

June 18th, 2023, 4:29 pm

I tried camelback squezeable flasks, and AA-drink standard 0.5L bottles. I also tried hanging a 3L camelback on a rope and use the hose. Basically, during rowing it turns everything in a mess. Might be that I'm too clumsy, but rowing, squezing/holding something and breathing in a certain rythem will lead to a lot of messy drinking.

I considered a backpack, but I'm worried about heating up, so I am extremely curious about your experiences with this.

I tried drinking while rowing one-handed but I lose too much time, esp. if I need to drink every 15min.
I refuse the backpack thing, I sweat already enough. So only thing left is the camelback hanging near me and using the hose+valve.

You need to practice it a bit, but worked very fine for me already at the second trial. Didn't spill a single drop the whole 1h30 and with a bit of practice you don't lose a second.

I've built small lego "rake" so that I can hang-unhang the valve easily (in fact the "rake' was already built, original purpose was to hold the rower's handle at the end of the rail while putting some oil on the chain, so it's now a two-tricks pony).

I wish the valve had a larger flow (drinking takes time and this disturbs breathing, esp. if you're at high HR). I also wish I had a way to thermally insulate the "tank": water was fridge-cold and I added some ice, but HM & FM are long affairs and here it can get hot (today it was 25C, but I've rowed in 35C and more). By the end of the HM it was barely chilly, so for a FM at 30C hmm ...

P.S.
What made me go into hydration during rowing was a marathon training plan saying: "For each litre of sweat loss dehydration, rowing heart rate will increase by approximately 8 beats, and this will significantly reduce performance if the body is not continually re-hydrated."
I tested once and doing a 2:12 pace HM without drinking during the session I lost 2.1Kg: if that makes my heart beat an extra 16bpm then yeah, bad.

HornetMaX wrote: ↑

June 18th, 2023, 5:04 pm

I tried drinking while rowing one-handed but I lose too much time, esp. if I need to drink every 15min.
I refuse the backpack thing, I sweat already enough. So only thing left is the camelback hanging near me and using the hose+valve.

You need to practice it a bit, but worked very fine for me already at the second trial. Didn't spill a single drop the whole 1h30 and with a bit of practice you don't lose a second.

For a recent full marathon I experimented with a 3 liter water bladder hung from the ceiling. Didn't work for me as the hose was rather short (about a meter), which caused yanking on the bladder during rowing. In the end I settled on regular bottles and short drinking breaks every half hour. I figured I could gain a full minute (or maybe even two) if I could figure out a contraption that would allow me to continue rowing. So I wonder what made the difference for you. Was the hose on your camelback considerably longer?

MudSweatAndYears wrote: ↑

June 18th, 2023, 5:34 pm

For a recent full marathon I experimented with a 3 liter water bladder hung from the ceiling. Didn't work for me as the hose was rather short (about a meter), which caused yanking on the bladder during rowing.

Similar approach and similar results. I attached my 3L from the ceiling, 1 meter hose attached. During rowing the bladder was yanked along, but due to the meter of hose, it lagged behind. So I ended up with a 3 kilo weight going in the opposite direction as my rowing, yanking at the hose at the end as we were in oposite positions. Aside from a lot of spilled water and breathing issues, I was afraid to get hit by it and abonded the whole idea.

So if anyone has a decent contraprion, I'm interested.

MudSweatAndYears wrote: ↑

June 18th, 2023, 5:34 pm

For a recent full marathon I experimented with a 3 liter water bladder hung from the ceiling. Didn't work for me as the hose was rather short (about a meter), which caused yanking on the bladder during rowing. In the end I settled on regular bottles and short drinking breaks every half hour. I figured I could gain a full minute (or maybe even two) if I could figure out a contraption that would allow me to continue rowing. So I wonder what made the difference for you. Was the hose on your camelback considerably longer?

Hose is 95cm, but the bladder was hanging from a hook that was at shoulder height (while seated on the rower) and not too far (both laterally and longitudinally) from my shoulder when at mid-stroke. So the 1m hose length allows me to row properly (being only 173cm helps here) without yanking the bladder back and forth.

Following as I am getting more and more into distance related work and the hydration component is becoming a bit of an issue as I row in my garage (here in Vegas). I've noticed a bit more heart rate drift while rowing than when running, even in the climate here, but I attribute it to not hydrating as well as I do when running (carry insulated bottles). I'll take breaks during steady state sessions to drink, change shirts, etc., but looking for a more efficient way to hydrate, especially if pushing sessions for time. I was thinking about the backpack hydration systems as the best way to go but want to make sure it will be comfortable over an extended erg session.

HornetMaX wrote: ↑

June 18th, 2023, 12:41 pm

Guess I'm not rowing an HM without drinking again.

Im curious to know how you come to the conclusion that it was the camel pack that gave you an improvement of 7bpm? That seems to me to be quite a large difference, suggests to me that perhaps you were dehydrated to start. Its also a single row, and one swallow doesn't necessarily make it summer as the saying goes.

Re fluid intake, the amounts of water recommended are often IMHO overkill.

The best mechanism imho is to exercises, and weigh yourself before/after to determine sweat loss for you. In that way you know what your consumption is.

FWIW I have rowed a number of marathons and longer, the training plan i used has similar suggested fluid intake as the link to the mayo clinic posted. I could not drink those amounts but found from my training that i didn't need to anyway. If i was going to erg that duration in the summer (id probably not out of choice) Id check my fluid intake at the relative temps, still be very surprised if i need that amount of fluid but would look to find out what my needs were so i knew rather than used the guides.

That way you drink what you need to, no more or less and in that way optimise the time taken drinking.

GlennUk wrote: ↑

June 19th, 2023, 2:29 am

Im curious to know how you come to the conclusion that it was the camel pack that gave you an improvement of 7bpm? That seems to me to be quite a large difference, suggests to me that perhaps you were dehydrated to start. Its also a single row, and one swallow doesn't necessarily make it summer as the saying goes.

What else could give me that improvement over 1-2 weeks ? Anything else (hydration aside) was identical to previous runs so yeah I was not properly hydrated (to start with and/or becoming so along the HM).

As said I measured 2.1Kg loss for a 2:12 avg pace HM (at 21C, so not really hot for where I live): that looks like a lot of drinking upfront ...

GlennUk wrote: ↑

June 19th, 2023, 2:29 am

Its also a single row, and one swallow doesn't necessarily make it summer as the saying goes.

Likely I'll row another HM this wed (summer solstice challenge), pretty sure it will make two swallows

For slow paced stuff I'd grab a pint glass of water one handed (right) and just row with my left, with two large mouthfuls over 2 strokes it was typically enough to give my mouth the refreshment it needed and just enough water to make me feel as though I'd had a drink.

As I got faster that became less practical, and so I've just got an old squeezy bike bottle - same one handed approach - when I know I need to take a drink during a row (anything longer than an hour for me) then I bring a table in that means I'm not grabbing things off the floor.

One thing I have observed, is that while the fan stops me sweating as much, and thus I feel less need to drink while rowing normally, the air past my face means my mouth gets a lot drier as a result; and that make me feel like I need more water as it makes breathing a bit more difficult on occasion.

A slightly important thing to note with rowing one handed is to time your drinks so you're substantially through the interval due to the way the monitor works.

For example, if you did it at the start of a, for example 3k interval, it will be A LOT slower than if you wait until circa halfway through. I experimented with drinking a little bit this morning and I only lost 0 2 seconds pace, which quickly dropped to 0.1 with a few harder strokes (only 2 or 3 seconds faster) when I did it after halfway through the interval.

I know from previous experience average pace has dropped by circa 20 seconds if you drink at or too near the start of an interval and it's painfully slow at dropping down

p_b82 wrote: ↑

June 19th, 2023, 4:23 am

One thing I have observed, is that while the fan stops me sweating as much, and thus I feel less need to drink while rowing normally, the air past my face means my mouth gets a lot drier as a result; and that make me feel like I need more water as it makes breathing a bit more difficult on occasion.

Many people find having the fan on your back is better.

HornetMaX wrote: ↑

June 19th, 2023, 3:38 am

As said I measured 2.1Kg loss for a 2:12 avg pace HM (at 21C, so not really hot for where I live): that looks like a lot of drinking upfront.

Based on that figure you loose c.3% of your body weight or more depending on exactly how much of a lightweight you are in a HM, with drinking on your strategy this equates to 25% less than you lose.

how does this reduced HR/pace compare with lesser other erg sessions?

HornetMaX wrote: ↑

June 19th, 2023, 3:38 am

"For each litre of sweat loss dehydration, rowing heart rate will increase by approximately 8 beats, and this will significantly reduce performance if the body is not continually re-hydrated."

Where does that quote come from please?

For someone who weighs 50kgs, compared with someone who weighs 100kgs this represents a significant difference in % body weight which is the usual benchmark i have seen previously, with figures of around 2% loss in body weight, being the area where one sees performance signfciantly affected.

I'm 72Kg so 2.1Kg is close to 3%.
That was for a slow HM at mild temperature, with no intake at all during the session.
With 500ml before start and ~1.5L during the last HM, my avg HR went down 9 beats.
Guess if I were to push more (like my PB 2:05 vs my steady 2:12 pace) guess this would be even more.

The quote comes from a marathon plan pdf I've found on the web. I'm not very willing to put the address as I suspect the author is selling the plan and the link is a bit of a pirate thing. I stumbled on the page easily though, so if you search ...