Concept2 Forum

Hi All

I have always followed a training plan for erging since i got my C2 some years ago, however i have never really incorporated any strength training alongside (until i attempted to improve my 100m PB Oct-Dec 2022).

As the training for the 100m was so bespoke I only lifted weights/practiced sprint starts for about 6-8 weeks. But more recently I followed the Eddie Fletcher FM plan, and now i have moved to the PP for a bit (my objectives have changed during this period).

In both plans they emphasize the importance of rest days, but not weights (as far as i can see). So i adapted the plans to fit in with my routine, and typically row for 2 days, lift weights, rest then 2 days etc.

The question is do others incorporate strength/weight training into their regimes, and if so any advice as to best way to approach such combinations?

Thanks for any thoughts.

I have mainly bodyweight strength training background and added rowing beginning of last year. I find it very beneficial to incorporate strength training, but more related to carry over to the "normal life", mobility, overall strength, joints movements in all dimensions and not to rowing specifically.
I think of you don't want to focus on shorter distances, you will not find huge gains with strength training, as 2k and above is mainly aerobic.
Nevertheless, if you are stronger and also have a better strength endurance, you could maintain a stronger stroke for the same time or create an even stronger stroke for a shorter time. But this could probably also be achieved with power stroke training.

I don't do weight training, but maybe my times demonstrate that I should! I try and get some of the benefit by doing some sessions at maximum work per stroke. All the authorities I have seen suggest that at least for those over 55 there is a clear need to address the loss of muscle that will occur without strength activities to reduce / reverse it. Certainly when my exercise dropped to mainly walking from 2013 to 2019 (when I went from 45 to 51), I lost significant lean mass as I was able to drop over 4% below the point at which I had lost strength in 2011 with no adverse effects. As someone not overly blessed with strength to start, that is huge, especially when happening before the significant declines are expected.

I have just started weight training in the last few days and I hope it will benefit my erging. I haven't done deadlifts yet but I do leg press machine, bench press, lat pull downs, triceps pulls, rowing motion weight machine. Even air squats. All at max weight I can do 5 reps, 6 sets each.

Will it make a difference? we'll see. Too early to tell yet.

GlennUk wrote: ↑

June 5th, 2023, 7:21 am

Hi All

I have always followed a training plan for erging since i got my C2 some years ago, however i have never really incorporated any strength training alongside (until i attempted to improve my 100m PB Oct-Dec 2022).

As the training for the 100m was so bespoke I only lifted weights/practiced sprint starts for about 6-8 weeks. But more recently I followed the Eddie Fletcher FM plan, and now i have moved to the PP for a bit (my objectives have changed during this period).

In both plans they emphasize the importance of rest days, but not weights (as far as i can see). So i adapted the plans to fit in with my routine, and typically row for 2 days, lift weights, rest then 2 days etc.

The question is do others incorporate strength/weight training into their regimes, and if so any advice as to best way to approach such combinations?

Thanks for any thoughts.

I'm coming to rowing from a strength training and running background.

I cannot recommend training strength enough; it will 100% add a benefit.

A couple of mistakes people make (IMO):

- Trying to do "complex" movements without proper instruction or without hammering form, technique, movement and bracing patterns, etc. I liken it to learning how to walk before you run. Learn how to move through certain patterns and planes before loading weight. I would focus on 5 main movement patterns - a squat, a hip hinge, an upper body push, an upper body pull, and a carry.

- Training with too many reps. Training with higher reps seems intuitive when it comes to a power endurance sport but frankly, its wrong. You get your endurance work or sport specific work through rowing - strength training is general physical preparedness for rowing. Lower rep work for maximum strength, power, and acceleration is much better. I rarely am working over 5-6 reps per set.

- Training too close to failure. I would agree that training close to muscular failure is a good idea, provided it can be done safely, with respect to maximum muscular hypertrophy. However, unless you are after that last few percent, training away from failure will be safer, encourage better movement patterns, and will help to reinforce powerful movement. When training close to or to failure, you get a bit "grindy" which doesn't transfer well to a lot of sports, especially rowing (IMO).

I would recommend looking into work by Pavel Tsatsouline and Dan John with respect to strength/weight training.

I got into rowing from CrossFit and before CF I did pretty much nothing but weight training. I think it does add a lot of benefits but as others pointed out it depends on what your goals are. If you want to go faster in the 2K and above then it's not doing that much to help but for sprints you need some power. Many use leg/back movements to mimic the muscles used in rowing and that makes sense. However, while I do use those movements I also like to work the muscles rowing doesn't work much like pressing movements. I find this keeps me more fit and balanced overall. So, short answer I suggest weights for everyone, they can definitely help and not going to hurt you as long as you use good form and stay smart. As far as how to incorporate really depends on recovery and time. I have days dedicated for weights only.

iain wrote: ↑

June 5th, 2023, 10:50 am

All the authorities I have seen suggest that at least for those over 55 there is a clear need to address the loss of muscle that will occur without strength activities to reduce / reverse it.

Thanks, at 62 i think Im definitely in the area where i need to try to maintain muscle mass, bones density, even if it doesn't improve my erging.

[quote=jcross485 wrote: ↑

June 5th, 2023, 2:08 pm

Training with too many reps. I rarely am working over 5-6 reps per set.

- Training too close to failure. I
I would recommend looking into work by Pavel Tsatsouline and Dan John with respect to strength/weight training.

Thanks from the reading i have done i did work that out, but good to have it re-enforced, ill look up the guys you mention.

Re form, i have spent a few months working on my form and have tended to lighter weights rather than working to max efforts. I have recently increased the weights (Squat/DL just over 100kgs) with fewer reps. Will spend some time consolidating before attempting to lift more.

Sakly wrote: ↑

June 5th, 2023, 9:30 am

I think of you don't want to focus on shorter distances, you will not find huge gains with strength training, as 2k and above is mainly aerobic.
Nevertheless, if you are stronger and also have a better strength endurance, you could maintain a stronger stroke for the same time or create an even stronger stroke for a shorter time. But this could probably also be achieved with power stroke training.

I do want to spend some time focussing on shorter pbs e.g. 100-500m/4mins/1min efforts where the start is especially important. My view is that being stronger is unlikely to harm my longer efforts but as part of an overall package of exercise should help me live a fitter more active life.

Kerry1960 wrote: ↑

June 5th, 2023, 11:21 am

Will it make a difference? we'll see. Too early to tell yet.

I set a 100m PB in Dec 2022, it was an all time PB with my previous set in 2010 I think it was. Initially i tried various different exercises, i ended up doing 'start training' and weights (DL/Squat/Upright Rowing) my PB went from 17.0 to 16.0 dead. after about 8 weeks of training. I reckon that the weights played a significant part in that improvement, along with a number of other tweaks. I am hopeful that if i train with weights over a longer period with the right focus i can get into the 15.x bracket.

Finally, thank you for everyone's comments.

I was also interested in how everyone fits weights into their training regime? Do you erg/lift on the same day or do you have separate days? If on the same day do you do a full set of lifts or just one set?

Thanks for looking.

KeithT wrote: ↑

June 5th, 2023, 2:56 pm

Many use leg/back movements to mimic the muscles used in rowing and that makes sense. However, while I do use those movements I also like to work the muscles rowing doesn't work much like pressing movements. I find this keeps me more fit and balanced overall. So, short answer I suggest weights for everyone, they can definitely help and not going to hurt you as long as you use good form and stay smart. As far as how to incorporate really depends on recovery and time. I have days dedicated for weights only.

Thank, re muscle groups.

Initially, i started to DL/Squat and upright row, more recently i have added benching too. I may incorporate and vary the exercises as i move forward to cover more areas not touched by erging and the other exercises i currently do.

GlennUk wrote: ↑

June 6th, 2023, 7:08 am

I was also interested in how everyone fits weights into their training regime? Do you erg/lift on the same day or do you have separate days? If on the same day do you do a full set of lifts or just one set?

I'm training for longer events and love strength work, for whatever it's worth.

I train on the same day, typically on the water in the morning and then lifting at lunch, but I'm replying between sets at the moment and will erg at lunch today.

I do a full set of lifts, most typically full body (such as deadlift, split squats, bench, weighted pullups, core), 4-5 sets of each, twice a week.

There are multiple approaches that can work. As with a lot of things, a lot of it comes down to what you can stick with consistently over time.

Elizabeth wrote: ↑

June 6th, 2023, 7:29 am

I'm training for longer events and love strength work, for whatever it's worth.

I train on the same day, typically on the water in the morning and then lifting at lunch, but I'm replying between sets at the moment and will erg at lunch today.

I do a full set of lifts, most typically full body (such as deadlift, split squats, bench, weighted pullups, core), 4-5 sets of each, twice a week.

There are multiple approaches that can work. As with a lot of things, a lot of it comes down to what you can stick with consistently over time.

Thanks for the response, appreciated. When you say longer events are you talking FM/longer?

Do you use the same approach with shorter events?

GlennUk wrote: ↑

June 6th, 2023, 7:40 am

Elizabeth wrote: ↑

June 6th, 2023, 7:29 am

I'm training for longer events and love strength work, for whatever it's worth.

I train on the same day, typically on the water in the morning and then lifting at lunch, but I'm replying between sets at the moment and will erg at lunch today.

I do a full set of lifts, most typically full body (such as deadlift, split squats, bench, weighted pullups, core), 4-5 sets of each, twice a week.

There are multiple approaches that can work. As with a lot of things, a lot of it comes down to what you can stick with consistently over time.

Thanks for the response, appreciated. When you say longer events are you talking FM/longer?

Do you use the same approach with shorter events?

I mean longer as in longer than a sprint. Right now, my next big planned event is Masters Nationals, which is a 1k. (Still pretty short.)

But I'm talking generally. I flipped back in my training log to last October, when I was training for a full marathon, and I would do a single, long training session before work. Here's Oct 20 as an example:
20 minute warmup on erg
3k @ 1:49.7, 2.5k @ 1:49.6, 2k @ 1:48.5
Squat 185x3x5 (lbs x reps x sets)
Bulgarian Split Squats 45x10x2
Overhead Press 95x5x3
Barbell Row 95x8x2
Core

I am still a novice rower so take that for what its worth, but in other sports, especially the ones I pursued pretty competitively, the general idea was "hard days hard, easy days easy". It's a consolidation of stressors type of approach.

Ultimately, it comes down to what you can fit into your schedule and what you can consistently adhere to approach wise, but if you are able to row 5-6x a week and strength train 2-3x a week, I would try to pair harder interval / sprint sessions on the rower with the strength training days (ie hard) and leave the steady state / base work to be your lighter or easier days.

If there are days that you will be rowing and strength training, I would recommend rowing first and strength training later / after. I would also try to separate sessions by at least a few hours so you can get some food and fluids back in the system. If you are able to separate sessions a bit, I would strength train with normally scheduled volume and intensity; you will likely adapt to it in a short period of time. If you are in a position where you will need to strength train immediately after rowing, I would cut total volume (sets) down by about 50% - this will help to make sure you get something in, that something is quality, but you mitigate injury risk which would ultimately set back rowing. Over time, you could quite possibly adapt to strength training immediately following a hard rowing session but I think it's still better to separate them a bit.

GlennUk wrote: ↑

June 6th, 2023, 7:08 am

Sakly wrote: ↑

June 5th, 2023, 9:30 am

I think of you don't want to focus on shorter distances, you will not find huge gains with strength training, as 2k and above is mainly aerobic.
Nevertheless, if you are stronger and also have a better strength endurance, you could maintain a stronger stroke for the same time or create an even stronger stroke for a shorter time. But this could probably also be achieved with power stroke training.

I do want to spend some time focussing on shorter pbs e.g. 100-500m/4mins/1min efforts where the start is especially important. My view is that being stronger is unlikely to harm my longer efforts but as part of an overall package of exercise should help me live a fitter more active life.
[...]
I was also interested in how everyone fits weights into their training regime? Do you erg/lift on the same day or do you have separate days? If on the same day do you do a full set of lifts or just one set?

Thanks for looking.

First answer to last question. Typically going for 3 strength sessions in the gym per week. As they are intense to very intense I typically don't erg on the same day, but rarely I do shorter and sharper stuff on the same day in the morning (gym days during the week are in the evening, weekend varies). Since yesterday gym has owned a rowErg, so this could change. Yesterday I did a row warmup and the CTC before training.
The remaining days in the week I typically go for longer steady states, 10k or 60min typical, sometimes HM. Intervals or hard stuff on the erg very rarely, as this conflicts with gym sessions. I think this will change a bit, as I could do some intervals in the gym now, stacked with strength training.
At least one full rest day per week.

Now the first quote.
I find to get the best carry over to real life by doing bodyweight exercises. They don't give the most strength gains for specific movements (compared to isolated weighted exercises), but they give the best amount of stability, core work, mobility and ability for all day movements. This is the reason why the majority of exercises are bodyweight stuff for my sessions.
I also work on higher rep ranges with very proper form and explosiveness as long as possible to recruit much fibres.

A typical example of a gym training:
First I do skill:
- handstand training, handstand pushups wall supported 3-4 sets, 20-25 reps nearly every session
- dragon flags, skin the cat or other stuff, alternating from session to session
- barbell basic movements, squats or (romanian) deadlift weighted,
squats varying between pause squats, explosive, high weight low reps/low weight high reps (low weight around 60-80kg, high weight 100-130kg)
Deadlifts typically 100-120kg 3-4 sets each 10 reps with small plates for higher ROM. Romanian with bit lower weight, 80-100kg.

After that starting some intervals or circles combining push, pull and legs or/and core. Yesterday we had programmed:
3 rounds of: 12 Ring Pushups - 12 Trx Rows (legs fully horizontal) - 6 Lunge - Reverse Lunge each leg
Then
3 rounds of: 12 pelican curls - 12 french press, both at hip height fixed barbell.
Then
8x20s hollow body hold (tabata)
Then
2x1min passive hang with 2min rest

Typically we do two of push, pull, legs/core intervals/circles, but yesterday not.

Other combinations could have more or less reps, based on the progression level/intensity of the exercises. Often also incorporating jumping (broad jumps, squat jumps, box jumps, etc.)
As you are moving through all planes, you get strong joints, during core and good strength stamina for shorter heavy stuff as well as for longer stuff. Overall I find this to be the best approach, at least for me.

Very short stuff, e. g. 100m, 1min will need more focus on strength and explosiveness, but even in a minute you will already have to perform at least 40 strokes, so I think training in a 5 rep range for few sets does not give a huge benefit, as you cannot maintain this strength level for long. I think a submaximal load lifted 10-12 times for more sets gives better results.

jcross485 wrote: ↑

June 6th, 2023, 8:56 am

Ultimately, it comes down to what you can fit into your schedule and what you can consistently adhere to approach wise, but if you are able to row 5-6x a week and strength train 2-3x a week, I would try to pair harder interval / sprint sessions on the rower with the strength training days (ie hard) and leave the steady state / base work to be your lighter or easier days.

Thanks, for me i typically erg late afternoons in the week and it varies at the weekend. I typically have about 1-1.5hrs a day to exercise in the week, weekends i could do two sessions. My exercising also has to fit in with early starts, travel for business, odd days here and there away from home, meetings which mean i dont get home till late, so fitting in two sessions in the week is not practical at the moment (i should retire i think!).

Elizabeth wrote: ↑

June 6th, 2023, 7:29 am

I train on the same day, typically on the water in the morning and then lifting at lunch, but I'm replying between sets at the moment and will erg at lunch today.

I do a full set of lifts, most typically full body (such as deadlift, split squats, bench, weighted pullups, core), 4-5 sets of each, twice a week.

There are multiple approaches that can work. As with a lot of things, a lot of it comes down to what you can stick with consistently over time.

Thanks, currently i am lifting every three days or so. Erging two days, lifting, one rest day then repeat. On lifting days i do the same 4 sets at the moment but change the order. The 4 sets being D/L, Bench, Squats, Upright Rowing. This takes me about 45-50mins to complete based on 4 sets a 4-6 reps, at increasing weight with c.2mins between each sets. Last session I moved the final sets up to 104/105 kgs for the D/L and Squat respectively. Ive only just started benching so am at pretty low weights 40kgs max, similar for upright rowing.

Sakly wrote: ↑

June 6th, 2023, 9:05 am

I also work on higher rep ranges with very proper form and explosiveness as long as possible to recruit much fibres.

Very short stuff, e. g. 100m, 1min will need more focus on strength and explosiveness, but even in a minute you will already have to perform at least 40 strokes, so I think training in a 5 rep range for few sets does not give a huge benefit, as you cannot maintain this strength level for long. I think a submaximal load lifted 10-12 times for more sets gives better results.

Form is something I am concerned about in the sense that i am being careful to maintain form before increasing weight. I have spent some time lifting over recent weeks/months and started out with small weights initially to check form. I have started videoing myself too on occasions to check my form.

I initially started lifting to aid a 100m pb attempt, went well for me taking 1 second off my original pb set in 2011, and i am currently planning on tackling a number of the shorter distances, 100m (again) 500m , 1min, 4min.

As an aside, i set my 1 min PB in 2021, which really surprised me since at the time i was training for a 116k row and following a plan dedicated to endurance, so was surprised to break my original PB set around 2010/11. The point being that good training seems to impact across the board, not just for one distance. I wolkd say in passing,m that for me dedicating a bit of time to specific distance seems to have worked.

In this sense i am firmly of the view that being stronger is likley to help me across a range of distances, although i akcnlwegded that for longer duration events, erging is likley to bring better improvements.

Thanks of reveryons comments so far, its really appreciated.

Keith said earlier " If you want to go faster in the 2K and above then it's not doing that much to help but for sprints you need some power"

My own view is that weights may help you go faster in 2k but clearly you have to put in the aerobic work as well.

Surely to do a fast 2k you must also be fast at 500 and 1k. I think it was JamesG in another thread who said that 2k Watts was about 70% of 500m Watts For me it's,almost bang on. 500m W = 298, 2k W =212. So I'm thinking if I can improve my 500m power with weights this may feed through into the 2k as long as I'm still putting the aerobic training in. Does that sound reasonable?