Concept2 Forum

24M 195lb 5"7' HR45-205

I started rowing 2ish months ago and put in around 60-70k/week. The workouts I do fluctuate as I learn, but this month I've stuck to: UT2, UT1, rest day, repeat. Those two workouts are always the same:

• UT2: 75 minutes, 16 SPM / 120-125W (2:20ish) RPE 3-5, around 16K
• UT1: 35 minutes, 24 SPM / 145-150W (2:11ish) RPE 6-8, around 8K

Both of these used to be 2s or so faster, but I found that reducing them made my RPE drop into the ranges I defined above. So I've slowed down. I'm here to ask two questions:

• For someone who wants to improve a lot on rowing, is this amount of work good?
• What kind of improvement might I see if I continue with this schedule?

Part of the reason I ask is because, while I am able to put out more power as I'm a muscle-y dude (est 7:45 2K or thereabouts), I often see younger teenagers on here pulling similar numbers and feel like I'm falling behind. Or maybe my progress is otherwise impeded by something. I feel like I should be comfortably 10s faster on both of these but I'm not and I don't know if that's okay or not, for my fitness - for context, I'm military and have no problem with a 10min/1.5mi run, 70+ pushups in a minute, etc. I know rowing is different, but I want to make sure I'm on track.

If you train this way, you likely train a weak stroke and to be slow. You miss speed work and you miss building a strong stroke.
Volume alone does not help with rowing, it only builds am aerobic base with no need, if it is not used.
Combine with speed work, intervals. Work on stroke power and technique.

24M 195lb 5"7' HR45-205

In ISO terms, that's 1.7m x 88kg, BMI = 30, so a lot of muscle that needs to work very hard.
Your UT1 at 150W rate 24 is a a stroke worth 150/24 = 6.25 Watt minutes.
Your UT2 was much better, 125/16 = 7.8 W-min.

This says you've done your endurance training, can now pass on to race training, which means, go faster.

So use your better stroke (7.8) if not bigger still, at the higher ratings, not the weaker one. 6.25 is less than what I do at age 82. Ignore RPE, HR etc, and keep the pieces short.

First step could be to row at 25 with an 8 W-min stroke, so 200W for say 2 or 3 x 7 minutes.

NB race programs are highly progressive and great fun. You never repeat the same workout, the aims are experience, quality and ability, not to be a slow millstone.

A 5-day 26-week Level 3 (of 5) race program, would have these schedules at start, middle and end:

Week 2 40'UT2 2x14'UT1 2x16'UT1 2x18'UT1 2x15'UT1

Week 13 TEST 2x9'AT 2x2'TR 2x8'AT 3x2'TR

Week 24 2x18'UT1 8x45sAN 4x3'TR 3x12'AT 3x6'TR

AT is typically is done at ratings 27 - 32.

For someone who wants to improve a lot on rowing, is this amount of work good?

No.

What kind of improvement might I see if I continue with this schedule?

None.

jamesg wrote: ↑

May 26th, 2023, 1:07 am

What kind of improvement might I see if I continue with this schedule?

None.

James,

I do read posts like this: https://www.howardluksmd.com/polarized- ... y-runners/ and https://medium.com/runners-life/putting ... bae4f888c5 where they have a different opinion. Could you elaborate on your firm no as I might learn something?

JaapvanE wrote: ↑

May 26th, 2023, 2:52 am

jamesg wrote: ↑

May 26th, 2023, 1:07 am

What kind of improvement might I see if I continue with this schedule?

None.

James,

I do read posts like this: https://www.howardluksmd.com/polarized- ... y-runners/ and https://medium.com/runners-life/putting ... bae4f888c5 where they have a different opinion. Could you elaborate on your firm no as I might learn something?

Current plan seems to consist of only slow training with more or less weak strokes. The trigger for improvement is missing - hard intervals or short to mid distance hard work. These are what the improvements bring up, not the volume.
For polarized trainings (both links relate to that topic) the 20% part is important, not the 80%. But the more of slow meters you build up, the bigger your cv base will get and improve your hard work, so you can do it even better/harder.

Sakly wrote: ↑

May 26th, 2023, 3:36 am

JaapvanE wrote: ↑

May 26th, 2023, 2:52 am

jamesg wrote: ↑

May 26th, 2023, 1:07 am

None.

James,

I do read posts like this: https://www.howardluksmd.com/polarized- ... y-runners/ and https://medium.com/runners-life/putting ... bae4f888c5 where they have a different opinion. Could you elaborate on your firm no as I might learn something?

Current plan seems to consist of only slow training with more or less weak strokes. The trigger for improvement is missing - hard intervals or short to mid distance hard work. These are what the improvements bring up, not the volume.
For polarized trainings (both links relate to that topic) the 20% part is important, not the 80%. But the more of slow meters you build up, the bigger your cv base will get and improve your hard work, so you can do it even better/harder.

Agree, the overload sessions are very important.

You're going to get a variety of opinions about your UT2 pace. I do a lot of meters that are weaker - as a percentage of my 2k watts - than what you're doing here. There are multiple approaches that work.

I'm also going to be a contrarian and say that you may be able to improve by continuing what you're doing now. But it's non-optimal, and improvements will be slower and stall more quickly.

What you're missing is some good hard work. Someone previously suggested the Pete's Lunchhour Plan to you in a previous thread, which is a great example of how to structure it. But you want some hard pieces, probably twice a week. Mine this week include 4x8:00 and 4x1000, each with no cap on HR - just how fast can I make the boat/erg go.

jamesg wrote: ↑

May 26th, 2023, 1:07 am

24M 195lb 5"7' HR45-205

In ISO terms, that's 1.7m x 88kg, BMI = 30, so a lot of muscle that needs to work very hard.
Your UT1 at 150W rate 24 is a a stroke worth 150/24 = 6.25 Watt minutes.
Your UT2 was much better, 125/16 = 7.8 W-min.

This says you've done your endurance training, can now pass on to race training, which means, go faster.

So use your better stroke (7.8) if not bigger still, at the higher ratings, not the weaker one. 6.25 is less than what I do at age 82. Ignore RPE, HR etc, and keep the pieces short.

I appreciate the thoughtful response, this answers a lot. Can I ask if there is a source or calculator or something that you're pulling these numbers from? This is the first I'm hearing about W-min as a measurement metric and I'd like to look into it a little more

ShortAndStout wrote: ↑

May 26th, 2023, 10:17 am

jamesg wrote: ↑

May 26th, 2023, 1:07 am

24M 195lb 5"7' HR45-205

In ISO terms, that's 1.7m x 88kg, BMI = 30, so a lot of muscle that needs to work very hard.
Your UT1 at 150W rate 24 is a a stroke worth 150/24 = 6.25 Watt minutes.
Your UT2 was much better, 125/16 = 7.8 W-min.

This says you've done your endurance training, can now pass on to race training, which means, go faster.

So use your better stroke (7.8) if not bigger still, at the higher ratings, not the weaker one. 6.25 is less than what I do at age 82. Ignore RPE, HR etc, and keep the pieces short.

I appreciate the thoughtful response, this answers a lot. Can I ask if there is a source or calculator or something that you're pulling these numbers from? This is the first I'm hearing about W-min as a measurement metric and I'd like to look into it a little more

That's easy to calculate, power/rate. If you row at 200W (PM gives you that number) and a rate of 20 (PM also gives this number) than your metric is 200W/20=10W/min per stroke.

Sakly wrote: ↑

May 26th, 2023, 10:33 am

That's easy to calculate, power/rate. If you row at 200W (PM gives you that number) and a rate of 20 (PM also gives this number) than your metric is 200W/20=10W/min per stroke.

Sometimes called "Stroke Power Index" "SPI" it is the work per stroke. This is a convenient scale but a strange unit, multiply by 60 to get Work per stroke in J.

Elizabeth wrote: ↑

May 26th, 2023, 8:26 am

You're going to get a variety of opinions about your UT2 pace. I do a lot of meters that are weaker - as a percentage of my 2k watts - than what you're doing here. There are multiple approaches that work.

I'm also going to be a contrarian and say that you may be able to improve by continuing what you're doing now. But it's non-optimal, and improvements will be slower and stall more quickly.

What you're missing is some good hard work. Someone previously suggested the Pete's Lunchhour Plan to you in a previous thread, which is a great example of how to structure it. But you want some hard pieces, probably twice a week. Mine this week include 4x8:00 and 4x1000, each with no cap on HR - just how fast can I make the boat/erg go.

I generally use a very lazy stroke. Maybe one day I'll smarten up and improve my SPI!

Can I ask if there is a source or calculator or something that you're pulling these numbers from?

It all comes from your data, and is just basic engineering, despite the unusual units.

Dividing Watts by Rating (strokes per minute) gives a measure of the amount of Work in each stroke. NB Work = Force x Length; and Power = Work/Time.

If you use your legs fast and hard (which needs a certain technique) in any case your performance will improve. You may not need to pull long distances: speed training is usually short intervals.

I improved at first using UT1/UT2 sessions. Basically I looped the first portion of the Concept V2(O'Neill) training. However, it stalled and I had to switch to a more mixed plan (I used Wolverine Plan) to continue making progress. I think part of it is that you need to be pushing strong strokes and fast as you can interval times to refine the stroke and actually improve the rowing itself.

ShortAndStout wrote: ↑

May 25th, 2023, 10:43 pm

24M 195lb 5"7' HR45-205

I started rowing 2ish months ago and put in around 60-70k/week. The workouts I do fluctuate as I learn, but this month I've stuck to: UT2, UT1, rest day, repeat. Those two workouts are always the same:

• UT2: 75 minutes, 16 SPM / 120-125W (2:20ish) RPE 3-5, around 16K
• UT1: 35 minutes, 24 SPM / 145-150W (2:11ish) RPE 6-8, around 8K

Both of these used to be 2s or so faster, but I found that reducing them made my RPE drop into the ranges I defined above. So I've slowed down. I'm here to ask two questions:

• For someone who wants to improve a lot on rowing, is this amount of work good?
• What kind of improvement might I see if I continue with this schedule?

Part of the reason I ask is because, while I am able to put out more power as I'm a muscle-y dude (est 7:45 2K or thereabouts), I often see younger teenagers on here pulling similar numbers and feel like I'm falling behind. Or maybe my progress is otherwise impeded by something. I feel like I should be comfortably 10s faster on both of these but I'm not and I don't know if that's okay or not, for my fitness - for context, I'm military and have no problem with a 10min/1.5mi run, 70+ pushups in a minute, etc. I know rowing is different, but I want to make sure I'm on track.

I think the question nobody’s asked is what do you want to be on track for?
Do you want to a be rower or an ‘erger’?
Do you want to be fast on the erg?
If so, at what distance?
If not then what do you wish to achieve?

I think the question nobody’s asked is what do you want to be on track for?
Do you want to a be rower or an ‘erger’?
Do you want to be fast on the erg?
If so, at what distance?
If not then what do you wish to achieve?

Solidly an erger, rowing would be something I do if I find the opportunity but will not make up any meaningful portion of my workouts. Primarily I'd like to get good at 2Ks, for my own personal benefit, and lower my SS split for the same times listed above, 60-75 minutes.