Concept2 Forum

Hi all,
My winter season has started and I want to really make a dent on my 2k over winter. I am 16m, 183 cm and 73kg and my 2k pb is a 7:04. I am thinking about starting the wolverine plan but just want to see everyone's opinions. Would it be worthwhile to follow the WP or should I just do a ton of steady state with one or 2 hard sessions e.g. 8*500m and 4*2k per week. I have a hrm which could help with the ss.

Thanks,
Will

I think that both of these plans will work Will. I find the Wolverine plan prescribes too fast a pace for me to recover from in the L3/4 sessions, but I'm geriatric and as a youngster I'm sure you will recover well and would probably find it helps you go faster more quickly than the simpler plan described. So overall my vote goes WP. Best of luck with it, and I'll look forward to seeing the sub 7 PB post.

MPx wrote: ↑

April 13th, 2023, 8:04 am

I think that both of these plans will work Will. I find the Wolverine plan prescribes too fast a pace for me to recover from in the L3/4 sessions, but I'm geriatric and as a youngster I'm sure you will recover well and would probably find it helps you go faster more quickly than the simpler plan described. So overall my vote goes WP. Best of luck with it, and I'll look forward to seeing the sub 7 PB post.

Those L3/L4 paces are far too aggressive for me, too. Loads of steady state + 2 high intensity sessions would be the route I'd go.

But, maybe I'm a 34-year-old geriatric!

Don't know the WP, but I worked with many SS sessions (~50-70k/week) around 2k+20-25s and very few hard rowing sessions over the last year. But added 3 gym sessions/week, so that could clearly be exchanged with 1 or 2 hard rowing sessions.
Went from 6:58 (on a good day with high exhaustion level) to 6:45 (on a bad day with less exhausted feeling after the row).

Personally I believe a key determinant of the "optimal" training plan for most (ie significantly sub-elite) individuals especially off-season is what you will enjoy most. Even MC who trains harder than most on this forum took it easy off-season to prepare for the coming season (especially true if you are going into serious training at the end of the winter). In this regard some people thrive on the discipline of L4s and find increased engagement from the ever changing parameters and improved training effects from the restraint of their innate over-exuberance, while others find that they reduce the joy and mental relaxation provided by more conventional SSs.

As to the comments above, I am also in the geriatric brigade and when I have incorporated WP components into my training I have added easier SS sessions or extra rest days when compared to MCs approach.

In addition, the WP is a balanced approach to training for 2ks. At the OPs age many people have more urgent training requirements not dealt with by a generic approach. As such someone who is growing rapidly may need to curtail training below WP levels, while others are best placed to capitalise on testosterone boosts to increase strength. It is too easy to focus on short term gains when what matters is overall development. You would be well advised to seek assistance from coaches or other experienced people who know you as to the most appropriate training to engage in.

will3 wrote: ↑

April 13th, 2023, 7:37 am

I am thinking about starting the wolverine plan but just want to see everyone's opinions.

Be careful. Many people base their opinions on incorrect information, or from results obtained while not following the plan as intended. How committed are you to putting in the required time and effort? Are you patient enough to follow a plan long enough to let it work?

MPx wrote: ↑

April 13th, 2023, 8:04 am

I find the Wolverine plan prescribes too fast a pace for me to recover from in the L3/4 sessions

I've made suggestions for L3 paces in terms of what people should build up to, but the only "prescription" is to do what you are capable of doing and no more. As Count Rugen said to Westley before starting him on the Machine, "Let's just start with what we have." L4 is prescribed by 2K pace, which needs to be accurate, and volume and total strokes should be added as slowly as necessary to allow progress.

btlifter wrote: ↑

April 13th, 2023, 8:13 am

Those L3/L4 paces are far too aggressive for me, too.

The relationship between the 2K and HM in your signature is right in line with my recommendations for L3. I'd have to know what L4 workouts you attempted to comment there.

Loads of steady state + 2 high intensity sessions would be the route I'd go.

That's an excellent one-sentence description of the Wolverine Plan.

Sakly wrote: ↑

April 13th, 2023, 8:30 am

Went from 6:58 (on a good day with high exhaustion level) to 6:45 (on a bad day with less exhausted feeling after the row).

When I was your age (and your height, and lighter than you) my 4 x 2K on a bad day was sub-6:40; my best 4 x 2K was sub-6:33.

iain wrote: ↑

April 13th, 2023, 9:00 am

In this regard some people thrive on the discipline of L4s and find increased engagement from the ever changing parameters and improved training effects from the restraint of their innate over-exuberance, while others find that they reduce the joy and mental relaxation provided by more conventional SSs.

I can see both points of view. I do both kinds of workouts.

Mike Caviston wrote: ↑

April 13th, 2023, 4:58 pm

Sakly wrote: ↑

April 13th, 2023, 8:30 am

Went from 6:58 (on a good day with high exhaustion level) to 6:45 (on a bad day with less exhausted feeling after the row).

When I was your age (and your height, and lighter than you) my 4 x 2K on a bad day was sub-6:40; my best 4 x 2K was sub-6:33.

That's impressive and I am working on it
How long did it take to get there? I am on the erg for 15 month now and not fully focusing on it, as I do 3 (hard) gym sessions in parallel.

Sakly wrote: ↑

April 13th, 2023, 11:51 pm

How long did it take to get there? I am on the erg for 15 month now and not fully focusing on it, as I do 3 (hard) gym sessions in parallel.

About four years of specifically trying to improve my 2K (I had rowed since college but pretty sporadically). These days I am also not fully focused on rowing, training for several other activities as well.

Mike Caviston wrote: ↑

April 14th, 2023, 11:59 am

Sakly wrote: ↑

April 13th, 2023, 11:51 pm

How long did it take to get there? I am on the erg for 15 month now and not fully focusing on it, as I do 3 (hard) gym sessions in parallel.

About four years of specifically trying to improve my 2K (I had rowed since college but pretty sporadically). These days I am also not fully focused on rowing, training for several other activities as well.

Ok, so I have another ~3 years to go
Even if I do not focus on the erg specifically, I made huge progress, but more on the longer distances, which suit me better. Intervals are rarely included, so the shorter distances show not the same improvements.
I think I will add some more intervals to get some gains for the shorter stuff as well, but for the cost of the gym sessions quality.
I will also read your WP to get an idea of your training approach. I wanted to do this long ago already...

Mike Caviston wrote: ↑

April 13th, 2023, 4:58 pm

Loads of steady state + 2 high intensity sessions would be the route I'd go.

That's an excellent one-sentence description of the Wolverine Plan.

Mike, a lot of what I have found about the WP seems more about the details of individual training sessions, and less into the details of what a given week would look like. I did find a document outlining 4-8 sessions a week, although I understand that you may personally do more. How much typical volume is someone getting if they follow the plan as intended?

I'm at 141k this week (54k OTW, 58k erg, 11k running, 35k BikeErg - counting these meters as half in my total), plus two strength sessions. Like MPx and Cam, I take my steady state easier to keep it something that I can recover from. I'm curious how this compares.

Elizabeth wrote: ↑

April 14th, 2023, 2:52 pm

Mike, a lot of what I have found about the WP seems more about the details of individual training sessions, and less into the details of what a given week would look like.

There is an awful lot of information about the Wolverine Plan that is easily accessible. Of course there is "The Wolverine Plan", which I prepared for the University of Michigan team back in 2001, and which I have emphasized many many times is not a definitive document but simply a CliffNotes-like precis:
https://www.concept2.com/files/pdf/us/t ... nePlan.pdf
Another source of info is to go to my user profile and click on "Search user's posts"; it is easy to scroll through posts and pick out ones that deal with the WP.
Someone collected posts I made on the old UK forum from around 2005 and made a PDF called "Wolverine Plan Remarks":
https://quantifiedrowing.files.wordpres ... -notes.pdf
There is the interview I did for Row2K:
https://www.row2k.com/features/391/mike ... avy-seals/
Probably the best single source is the thread I tried in vain to keep on topic on the old training forum which is archived:
viewtopic.php?f=19&t=4190
Yes, it is hard to read due to formatting corruption. Someone cleaned it up and sent me a PDF of all my posts (70 pages) but AFAIK it isn't on the internet. BUT it turns out someone archived the thread elsewhere:
http://concept2.van-diepen.nl/forum/Wol ... ion_01.htm

Elizabeth wrote: ↑

April 14th, 2023, 2:52 pm

How much typical volume is someone getting if they follow the plan as intended?

I've always thought of 100K as the threshold for achieving results at least in the ballpark of your potential. Because of NCAA regulations, even in-season the Michigan women couldn't do much more than 100K per week (7-8 workouts, water + erg), plus strength training and a little cross training. I got best results on 160-180K per week, plus strength training and a couple hours cycling.

I take my steady state easier to keep it something that I can recover from.

I keep my steady state something I can recover from as well. Seriously, how could I train if I didn't? But it's not easy.

I found the L4 sessions quite engaging compared to normal steady state, but there was a learning 'hump' to get over before it became easy to switch between stroke rate/pace combos.

Most of the Wolverine Plan advice is contained within an old C2 forum thread, and the document written for the Michigan rowers is only one small part of the story. The biggest take away (I think) is incremental gains and level/negative split pacing. Unless you spend a lot of time searching and sifting it would be easy to miss a lot of info.

I have a feeling if Mike C ever wrote a book about the Wolverine Plan collating all info regarding it into one place it would sell. I for one would buy it.

Mike----Book???????