How to row 2k at higher rate

[matt]

Hi,
I am not new to rowing but I haven’t done any sports for years and then started training ca. 12 months ago, with rowing added in in September last year.
I find that oddly I do better on low rate 2ks and low rate ergs in general. On the higher rate, I simply tend to blow. It got better since I started doing high rate high intensity intervals once a week, but my last 2k was mostly at 26 spm / 1:45 splits, except for the start and finish, which dropped the average and lead to a 6:48 in total. I’m 40 yo, 6”2, 82kg. I’m happy with 6:48 but I think I could be much better if I did the whole 2k at rate 32 but how is that possible without blowing up? Is it the nervous system that needs to get trained or the aerobic fitness or is erging technique the problem? I have the feeling that the way I erg at 32 spm during the middle of my 2k is not efficient, I get the same split using less energy at rate 26 with proper backswing/core etc.
What’s your advice?
Thanks-
Matt

[Cyclist2]

It sounds like you're adding power along with raising the rate. You'll blow up for sure. It is possible to row at high rates at lower power, but that doesn't help you, might as well keep it at 26spm. What high rates do for you (at the same power) is make each stroke easier, but there will be a lot more of them. Briefly; high rates are more aerobic, lower rates are more strength. There will be a "sweet spot" for you in a 2K.

You can train yourself to have good form at high rates by lowering the drag factor and keeping the power reasonable (so you don't blow up). Once you are comfortable with your technique at the higher rates, then start adding the power.

Sounds like you'll get it figured out pretty quickly. Good luck, and have fun!

[matt]

Yes, exactly, I’m adding power when raising the rate, because this is what I was taught to do in the boat: get the power down, then let the boat run, spin the hands, rate goes up. No rushing the slides etc. Here, on the erg, I would have to take the power //down// to take up the rate it seems: the opposite of what I would normally do in the boat. So therefore I don’t get it, it feels so counterintuitive. Also, once I (forced myself) to take the power down when upping the spm in a 2k, and I then felt it really difficult to switch the power back on for a sprint a the end, I was just tired and fatigued and empty but not fast. Is it a wise thing to power down when upping the rate on the erg?
I usually row the first 20 strokes of the 2k in the 1:20s at rate 40, and dropping from there to 1:45 at rate 32 seems like a huge drop in power, and does not feel natural. On the other hand, if I wait until I get naturally tired enough to row 1:44 at rate 32, then I’m at 1000m (or 800m, far enough to be tired but not far enough come to the end) and that means I’ll blow.

[jamesg]

On the erg we have to shift our own mass, which increases inertial loads at high rates. To reduce this I use a no-finish style, hardly past vertical, hands in and out short, low and as fast as possible, very little work done with the arms. Can get over 40 on the erg. It's better to get a couple more good strokes done with the legs rather than 30 weak arm finishes, especially in the last 500.

We see something like this on water too, probably due to the C2 blades which have better hydrodynamic characteristics than our ancient sweeps. They also have lower gearing, short outboard, which may translate to lower erg drag. High drag will kill this idea, but high drag is a killer anyway.

Examples are PtoM boatrace Sunday 26 March last (all the way at 35+) and PE final July 2018 (St Paul's) both on youtube. You might like Xeno's Atlanta Final too, he went the whole distance at 37 and took 4 lengths off the field in the last 500.

[Dangerscouse]

Yes, exactly, I’m adding power when raising the rate, because this is what I was taught to do in the boat: get the power down, then let the boat run, spin the hands, rate goes up. No rushing the slides etc. Here, on the erg, I would have to take the power //down// to take up the rate it seems: the opposite of what I would normally do in the boat. So therefore I don’t get it, it feels so counterintuitive. Also, once I (forced myself) to take the power down when upping the spm in a 2k, and I then felt it really difficult to switch the power back on for a sprint a the end, I was just tired and fatigued and empty but not fast. Is it a wise thing to power down when upping the rate on the erg?
I usually row the first 20 strokes of the 2k in the 1:20s at rate 40, and dropping from there to 1:45 at rate 32 seems like a huge drop in power, and does not feel natural. On the other hand, if I wait until I get naturally tired enough to row 1:44 at rate 32, then I’m at 1000m (or 800m, far enough to be tired but not far enough come to the end) and that means I’ll blow.

What does a normal week of training look like for you? Do you do much longer slower distance work? Also, do you do any higher rate shorter intervals eg 8 x 500 at r30-32?

I find r28-30 is my natural comfort zone, but going up to r32 can be a tipping point, so I also think that there is a specific point that you will drop off, especially when your mind is in panic mode and anything that feels unnatural doesn't sit comfortably.

What might be an issue for you is that building your aerobic capacity takes many months, and can be inadvertently compromised when you're more naturally inclined to lower power strokes.

Ime, there's also a breathing issue to consider. You've got more time to breath at r26 than you have at r32 and that needs an adjustment and emphasis on diaphragmatic breaths rather than shallow gasps.

[Cyclist2]

One drill I do is to keep the "power per stroke" the same with changing rates. For example, if I want to hold a steady 200 watts for the workout, then at 20spm, that would be 10 watts per stroke, but at 30spm it is 6.67 watts per stroke. You can't read that metric on the monitor, just the 200 watts, but holding the 200w steady and changing the rate will help you train for higher rates.

It sounds like what you are trying to do is, for example, hold that 10 watts per stroke at the higher rates. If you tried to hold 10w per stroke at 30spm, you'd be at 300w average, and at 32spm, 320 watts. Blow up, here I come! Think about runners; If Usain Bolt tried to run a mile at his 100m pace, he'd never make it. Have to drop the power to go the distance.

As I and Dangerscouse noted, getting more aerobically fit will allow higher rates. And, again, doing low drag, low power workouts will help you refine your technique for higher rates so that it feels comfortable and natural even when you start applying more power.

[Tobias Stoehr]

Yes, it is a wise thing to drop the power when upping the rate (if you compare it to r26 power stroking).

Some would argue you are overworking your r26 by applying too much power.

[iain]

Apologies if this comes across as patronising, but I was initially confused by the above.

In general you should try not to let your work per stroke drop significantly when you rate up (ignoring sprints) as this significantly increases the energy expended to achieve the same pace. What I believe the posters above are recommending is getting used to higher ratings initially at lower work per stroke as this allows you to get used to the timing, breathing etc. However to help with increasing your pace, you will then need to transition to your stronger "normal" stroke at the higher rating. Of course this means going faster and so requires more fitness.

- Iain

[matt]

Thank you all, and in particular Iain, what you are saying makes a lot of sense. You shouldn't let your power drop too much when you up the rate, but that requires more fitness, which I obviously don't have at the moment. That's a really interesting way to look at it for me because I always thought my weakness was strength.. so I started doing a lot of weights, changed my diet etc, got lots of rest, cut down on cardio, but now my fitness is not good enough (anymore) for the strength that I have... My dilemma is that if I start training UT2 five times a week then I won't have time to recover from the weights training. Can't do everything at the same time, also need to rest, so how do people build up strength and fitness simultaneously? I do one run per week, one hard high rate interval erg, two weights, and rowing on the weekend.

[Sakly]

My dilemma is that if I start training UT2 five times a week then I won't have time to recover from the weights training. Can't do everything at the same time, also need to rest, so how do people build up strength and fitness simultaneously?

If you row 5 times per week UT2 and cannot recover from it, you are probably too fast.
I have typically 4-5 rowing sessions a week, additional 3 (typically hard) gym sessions.
From gym sessions I gain the strength, but also some VO2max as we often work with hard intervals of bodyweight exercises. This is the reason why I have rarely hard sessions on the rower. When I started rowing, I could already pull a sub 7 2k, what shows that the bodyweight sessions help much to build needed strength and stamina. But since I added the 60-70k steady states to it, my cardio system improved dramatically.

For a strong stroke I like to go for low rate AT sessions, like 10k up to HM r20-24 with high power strokes which are higher in power as your standard stroke.

[Elizabeth]

It sounds like I have a more rowing-centered training program than Sakly, but second his point about UT2 intensity. It should be recoverable, and if not, you're likely either going too fast or trying to ramp up volume too quickly.

I have good fitness but struggle with rating up. I have a feeling those high rate interval ergs will be good practice for you, Matt.

[Dangerscouse]

My dilemma is that if I start training UT2 five times a week then I won't have time to recover from the weights training. Can't do everything at the same time, also need to rest, so how do people build up strength and fitness simultaneously? I do one run per week, one hard high rate interval erg, two weights, and rowing on the weekend.

The simple answer is we build up to it slowly. There's no shortcuts to being patient and incrementally increasing the effort / distance.

As Sascha and Elizabeth have said, find your personal pace for UT2, and that might be slower than you hope / assume. You can only train as hard as you can rest, so frame those sessions as doing what you should, not what you could.

[matt]

Many thanks for all your helpful answers! Must be more patient then, and do UT2 at a slower pace (forgetting the ego). Thanks for your help!

[cflrules]

Thank you all, and in particular Iain, what you are saying makes a lot of sense. You shouldn't let your power drop too much when you up the rate, but that requires more fitness, which I obviously don't have at the moment. That's a really interesting way to look at it for me because I always thought my weakness was strength.. so I started doing a lot of weights, changed my diet etc, got lots of rest, cut down on cardio, but now my fitness is not good enough (anymore) for the strength that I have... My dilemma is that if I start training UT2 five times a week then I won't have time to recover from the weights training. Can't do everything at the same time, also need to rest, so how do people build up strength and fitness simultaneously? I do one run per week, one hard high rate interval erg, two weights, and rowing on the weekend.

Matt, I am currently going through the same struggles. Trying to do 3-4 1 hour SS rows per week, a couple high rate intervals rows, and weights 3x per week. After my SS rows I am sluggish and tired, which makes the weight training not as effective. I have used the formula 50-55% Watts of current 2k PB (6:51:8 - 321watts = 160-176watts) and I think it's too fast. I am going to take the SS sessions down a notch and see how I feel going forward. Good luck with your training!

[putridp]

Matt, I am currently going through the same struggles. Trying to do 3-4 1 hour SS rows per week, a couple high rate intervals rows, and weights 3x per week. After my SS rows I am sluggish and tired, which makes the weight training not as effective. I have used the formula 50-55% Watts of current 2k PB (6:51:8 - 321watts = 160-176watts) and I think it's too fast. I am going to take the SS sessions down a notch and see how I feel going forward. Good luck with your training!

I current use 2:06 as my UT2 SS pace, with a current 2K of 6:46. I find my HR quite variable, and I have been concerned that it's a touch too fast (which has led to form breakdown and a muscle strain, or motivation issues).

On what you've said, I think a couple of high rate intervals sessions a week could be too much, consider replacing one of them with a 30 minute UT1 SS session (I use 1:59-2:00, either rating the same as my UT2 SS, or 2 spm higher). Personally I find interval sessions very psychologically challenging, and doing them only every 7-10 days allows me to really want to attack them at uncomfortably high rates, rather than just trying to endure them. UT1 SS sessions are my favourite. I do UT1 and intervals with DF up 5-10 from my preferred 115-117, FWIW.

Personally I would do the UT2 SS after weights, because weights would be my main focus on those days.

UT2 should be a touch more intense than zone 2 - Z2 and UT2 are not quite equivalent. Z2 cycle rides tend to be longer duration than UT2 rows. I think Z2 isn't quite appropriate for rowers, but really, there isn't much evidence on this.